[quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] Let's not confuse theories with evidence. [/b][/quote]Gravity is just a theory. Next time you fall up, let me know. [b] [quote]There are theories that homosexuals are born that way. [/b][/quote]Let’s not cloud issues, here. The issue is not whether they are born that way, or whether it’s genetic (the bulk of scientific evidence indicates that both are true). The question is whether one has a choice in the matter or not. I have yet to see any serious scientific study or evidence that indicates that homosexuality is a choice any more than heterosexuality is. If you know of any, please show it to me. There have been theories (now largely discredited) thrown around that it might be something in the environment in early childhood, or even a foetus’ position in the womb may affect sexual orientation. Studies have even shown physical differences in brain structure between heterosexuals and homosexuals, even amongst animals. [quote][i]In 1991 LeVay made news by claiming to have discovered that homosexual and heterosexual men have a difference in size in the third interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus. Some criticized the work as science by press conference, and critics have pointed out a number of concerns about the methodology, including sample size and measurement methods. Nonetheless, researchers have replicated the tests performed and have confirmed LeVay's findings, most recently in 2001, finding that there was a greater cellular density in gay men and straight women in the nuclei. Byne, W., S. Tobet, et al. (2001). "The interstitial nuclei of the human anterior hypothalamus: an investigation of variation with sex, sexual orientation, and hiv status." Horm Behav 40(2): 86-92. Oregon Health Sciences University has reported analogous findings for sheep. A hypothalamic cell group that may be the sheep equivalent of INAH3 was reported to be larger in rams than ewes, but smaller in homosexual rams than in heterosexual rams. Roselli, C. E., K. Larkin, et al. (2004). "The volume of a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the ovine medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus varies with sexual partner preference." Endocrinology.[/quote][/i] From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay Is your “belief” based on any evidence at all, or simply on the fact that the scientific evidence challenges your own prejudices?

Carl, I think that is a great point that you make about God making us how we are. If people believe that he is the Creator of ALL then why is difficult to see that he created people who are homosexual and that he loves them equally?

I think that is another great point about your daughter - and kudos by the way for being a loving and accepting parent!!! I think people are so foreign to things that are different that until they are personally affected or touched by something, then it is hard for them to understand. I have a couple family members who are gay and lesbian, as well as friends, and I am personally affected by their struggles which give me a much different perspective than someone who has never met a gay person or only sees and believes stereotypes.

Capt. Haddock, where is Believer's post? I would like to read it. I am confused... what is your view on homosexuality? And what is Believer's view?

Despite in which situation Pual may have yelled it at the people in court - in those days VD and hygiene was a big issue!

And in antique Greek, probably in many those old grand civilisations - sex with minors (slaves?) with the same sex, oral, anal name it - was the go!

Maybe Paul was a Opponent, someone who believed that there is something wrong with the society he was living in.

We have similar 'Opponents' or Moraleapostels all the way through the Centuries.

Way into the 20th Century it was generally believed and thought that masturbation brings mental decline and dumbness.

As well as it was widely believed that if a human travels faster than something like 20 km per hour - he would die... look today - again is an Astronaut fixing something on the spacestation....

I can't see anything wrong - wich ever way 2 or any number of people decide to have fun together - as long as it is under their very own consent.

Yes, I really can't see why it goes against Christian belief to accept homosexuals as equal creations of God.

First, with apologies to the Captain, A&B, I believe the comments were made on the religion as a competition thread.

Thanks, A&B.

I don't buy it (at least not as "explained"), but some people who use the Bible as their authority for what they believe would say that the curse God made when he expelled A&E from "The Garden" is why there are birth defects and homosexual "tendencies" and pain for women in child birth, and so on.

As I say, if true, God set us up again. And why would God not want us to eat of the tree of knowledge, anyway? So we'd remain little children? The fear evident in that stance and in the tower of babel stance ("lest they become like us") does not sound like a kind and loving God who would want to create a people that the angels would have wonder about.

Here's a recent email from my first daughter:

[quote]
Subject: Re: [a list] The Bible vs. The Christian Right's Agenda

Hi Dad,

Thought you might find this enjoyable to read - for me it was nothing that I hadn't already researched/read before, but it's always nice to read different ways of expressing the ideas.

hugs,
biff

In a message dated 7/26/2006 12:16:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [someone] writes:
One of my platforms has always been "Knowledge is Power" largely
because of my disgust with the hypocrisy of the Christian Right.
They take one or two particularly useful passages out of a book
which has been translated, interpreted, retranslated, reinterpreted,
retranslated, and reinterpreted ad nauseum for centuries and hold
them up as "The Irrefutable Word Of God"; yet they conveniently
discard all the inconvenient stuff.

The following is a link to an interview with Dr. Reverend Cheri
DiNovo, a United Church Minister who wrote her Ph.D. thesis on how
modern Christianity deals with the "outcasts of society".

I highly recommend you read it and pass the link on to others.

http://www.theturning.org/folder/samesex.html

Neutralizing the weapons of your opponent makes it very difficult
for them to continue attacking you.

Indeed. Sorry if I pulled that out of nowhere and confused the people on this thread, but we were sort of all over the place on the other thread so I thought it was more appropriate to split discussions up by topic.

The gist is that believer said he thinks homosexuality is a choice, and I disagree.

True ~ we have to at least try to keep thing on topic.

[quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] As for the homosexual thing. It's my personal belief. It may seem silly to you, but it is my belief. I don't hate homosexuals, as Fish has stated we have family members who are openly homosexual. I also have many friends who are openly homosexual. Do I feel that it's a choice? Yes I do. Like any sin in the world be it drunkeness, premarital sex, theft, lies, idolatry... it is a choice to partake or not. Does that mean I love them any less? No I speak to them about their sin as I speak to anyone about sin in general. We all have our sin, whatever that may be. Our sin separates us from God, whatever that may be. So all sin is equal because all sin keeps us from God. [/b][/quote] [quote]Originally posted by PDM: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] ...I also have many friends who are openly homosexual. Do I feel that it's a choice? Yes I do. Like any sin in the world be it drunkeness, premarital sex, theft, lies, idolatry... it is a choice to partake or not. ... [/b][/quote]But Believer ~ that [i]is[/i] offensive. Most people who actually [i]know[/i] about these things, know that it is not a choice. And not only do you believe this, but you also describe it as a sin. This [i]is[/i] offensive and prejudiced. [/b][/quote] http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000146;p=3 [quote]Originally posted by Capt. Haddock: [b] [quote]Originally posted by PDM: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] ...I also have many friends who are openly homosexual. Do I feel that it's a choice? Yes I do. Like any sin in the world be it drunkeness, premarital sex, theft, lies, idolatry... it is a choice to partake or not. ... [/b][/quote]But Believer ~ that [i]is[/i] offensive. Most people who actually [i]know[/i] about these things, know that it is not a choice. And not only do you believe this, but you also describe it as a sin. This [i]is[/i] offensive and prejudiced. [/b][/quote]It must be a cold day in hell, but I’ll stand with believer on this one. I don’t see how his comments are offensive. Claiming that homosexuality is a choice is misinformed and possibly ignorant, but not really offensive. Claiming homosexuality is a sin: well, that is the view of the overwhelming majority of religious people (not just Christians) about it as well as premarital sex, divorce and all the usual peccadillos. I don’t see how anybody could be offended by it unless they happen to belong to that particular religion. If I told you that brushing your teeth is considered a sin by some tribe in New Guinea, would you be offended? [/b][/quote] http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000146;p=4

I think that, if I were homosexual and I was told that, by being simply being me, I was committing a sin equal to theft or lying. I would be very offended.

Claiming that homosexuality is a choice is misinformed and possibly ignorant, but not really offensive. [Captain H]

OK, how about if I said that being black is a sin and that people must surely have a choice in the matter and that, since they choose to be black, they are sinners and the equvalent of liers, thieves idolators. How would that sound? But it would be the same kind of thing.

My apologies to black people here, I am not trying to upset or offend, I just wanted to show how differently things can be perceived by inserting a different, but parallel, word.

Can you see what I mean Captain?