Yes, I did go off at a tangent, but to show that it would be short-sighted of me to criticise the lack of equal rights in another culture, when I did not have those rights myself when I started work.

I too have my name on the deeds, my husband earns our money, while I stayed home & looked after the children. I have been criticised for not working, actually. I suppose I'm seen as a traitor to the women's movement.

If we go back a little way in English history, we find women who covered themselves up and had their hair tied up. The Bible makes a fuss about women with flowing hair, which is, presumably why hats were supposed to be worn in church and why nuns dress similarly to some devout Moslem women. Women were considered to be the chattels of men. If that was what was going on in England, why should I be shocked if I find out that similar ideas are part of another culture now?

I haven't read the Koran, but both these women, who were of different ages and from different countries, really felt that the Koran was against killing - and that killers would not go to paradise. (One seemed to know both the Bible & the Koran off by heart.) The only exception was if you killed someone accidentally, while fighting them to defend oneself. And even the Old Testament says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The way these two ladies lived, they felt that they had equal opprtunities, were equal under law if they did something wrong, had equal rights to education, etc. I'm sure that the same is true of my Moslem friend. And, as they do live in England, that is what is relevant to them. There are Christian countries where horrible things are happening - I can really only talk about my own country.

I appreciate what you are saying, though, Somsuj. I think things are different in different countries & in different parts of this country (UK), and even within different families. There are extremists in many areas, but these extremists are dangerous beyond measure. It's good to know, though, that within Islam there are caring people, who are content to live in the West, who do not want to change it and who are very much against terrorism and whose interpretation of Islam is a good , non-violent one.

Religious differences cause no end of problems. I don't want them to provoke racism and racist behaviour. If we could get to know each other, and each other's ideas, better - as I was able to get to know these ladies - maybe we could accept each other more easily. That has got to be a good thing.

I do worry about the future, though, I really do - especially when I see what is happening on the world news.

Sorry - I meant i was going off a tangent - not you PDM - sorry again!

PDM, the difference is that your culture few years ago did not claim it treats male and female equally. Moslems (wrongfully) claim that and yet lack that quite obviously. that's what i object to!
In my opinion, my wife has a harder job, compared to me. She is the rock upon which my family stands. My admiration for her is immense.
She is financially secure - i make sure of that.
i donot really mind covering oneself up - some of the garbs are nice looking. I find the veil - exposing eyes only just insulting.
The Burkha has its variation according to cultures.
Well the Koran clearly says that a person killed in Jihad goes directly to paradise, where 70 'huries' (beauties) will attend his every needs ..........
those ladies do not know their Korans or were not truthful!
again - this is not Islam we are talking about - are we ? In India - as in UK under prevailing laws male and female of every religion has equal opprotunities and are treated as equal.
does this reflect Islamic attitude to women ? Come on !!

these people take advantage of secular laws. If they felt they were equal - it is because of secular laws. how can they say they were treated equally because of Islamic custom ?
Your Government should - and if they keep on being politically correct - you are going to pay a heavy price for it.
I do not think knowing each other is a solution - removing radicalism within their community by themselves is - and they seem reluctant to do it.
Moslems regard another Moslem as their brother - it is unique - we Hindus do not do that, Christians has great love for their neighbours but do not really consider them brothers - and no one betrays their brother.

May i recommend a book ?
it is Occidentalism: A Short History of Anti-westernism by Ian Buruma, Avishai Margalit . I picked it up at Heathrow airport - I have read it and is still analyzing what I have read. here is what amazon says : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...nce&s=books
you can have a sneak peek.

cheers

Posted by PDM: Is that right? You've been criticised for not working? I can't imagine someone doing that. How sad! To me, the women's movement is all about choice. The choice to work, got to school, start a business or the choice to stay home and take care of one's family. Or, all of the above! For someone to downgrade homemaking as a lesser profession disrepects & insults your entire family I think.


I have never felt cheated out of a career by staying home and caring for my family. And I went to college like you. I always felt VERY fortunate to GET to stay home, and I was happy to do so. I imagine you feel the same way and it's too bad some women are not secure enough in their self worth to see the treasure at home. But, I have known women who don't like staying home with the kids...drives them nuts actually!

When my kids were small and didn't attend school I only cared for them but in the last 5 years I started to pursue some ideas business wise. But, even now with almost all my kids out of the house, I still work in my home studio and probably will until I quit designing jewelry. I like to work around my husband's schedule. My first priority is him, even above the kids. And not because I feel subservient...but simply because I love him. I imagine I would be considered a traitor to the women's movement also but...oh well!

You do work now right? And does it work out alright with the kids because they are older and more self sufficient?

I work freelance and part-time - sometimes I teach for just a couple of hours per week, sometimes more. (Plus all the non-paid-for preparation time which can be several hours - but usually at home.)

I'm working on a research project for the university, as well, which involves going off interviewing people for a couple of hours per person.

It usually fits around my family fairly well. My boys are older, but I have to be there to pick my daughter up from the train after school.

I worked before I had the children, until I went to university as a 'mature student'.

Yes, that definitely looks as if it would be worth reading.

Meanwhile, I found an essay which I shall look at:
'The Origins of Occidentalism' by IAN BURUMA
http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i22/22b01001.htm

Re equality, killing, etc, I shall ask the ladies, if I get the opportunity, but really this was a chance meeting, so it may not happen again.

Maybe it depends on one's upbringing, family, etc, how they interpret the Koran. After all, different Christians interpret the Bible differently. There are different branches of Islam, as there are different branches of Christianity. There has been much bloodshed and horror committed in the name of Christianity, yet the Bible says 'Thou shalt not kill', and 'turn the other cheek'.

What is worrying, is if the ones who believe in violence get the power. The Crusades and Inquisition are examples of what can happen when religion has too much power and influence.

I think it is sad that decent, innocent people may all be targeted because of the behaviour of a few. And this can be anyone, really.

We talked, before, about slavery and the guilt of 'the white man', yet those same white men who were making black slaves suffer, were also making their white inferiors suffer, too. Many of the servants, etc, were little more than slaves, in truth.

I'm not disagreeing with you Somsuj. As I said, I really do worry about what is going on, but
I think we have to be very careful about labelling all people who seem the same, as the same.

I'm sure we must all know Moslems who live in the West as Westerners, but who retain their Moslem faith. They are not against Westerners or Western society. They do not bemoan Western ways any more than anyone else.

There do appear to be some very important differences between them and the radicals who make the News.

sorry for getting back after a gap!

PDM, no offence meant, you should really worry - your government should worry - even after incidences in France you do not learn a lesson.........

the other misconception is NO PDM, all of them - they are MUSLIM first! Any muslim anywhere in the world is their brother! they love all western facilities (for men). they won't give the western freedom to their women , while themselves enjoying it!

here is a link you may need to know - it is about the same Indian Muslim Tennis Player, about whom I have posted before : http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14015549&headline=Ulema~continues~attack~on~Sania
I quote :

PDM, you are absolutely correct about Moslems living in western society. An overwhelming majority of them are very tolerant people. Somsuj, I really think it doesn't serve any purpose (other than inflammatory) to paint everyone with the same brush. The Moslems in your circle of acquaintances may be hardliners; that doesn't mean all Moslems are like that.

To me the issue isn't so much about the people of Islam...I am certain there are multitudes of very kind Muslims. I find the oppression of women to be a major concern. And I think that the oppressed tend to suffer in silence which does not help their cause.

I think the 'advertised' status of women's rights in Islam and the 'real' status of women's rights differs greatly at times. In other words...I see a false face pushed forward to the world but reality is nothing like the face portrayed. Here is an article a few years old but still relevant 5 years later. Women are striving for equality but it is a long road ahead. I think the criticism of the tennis player shows that conservative Muslims don't want to let go of the subservient role of their women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/643526.stm

As a side note...Here is a popular toy doll with little Muslim girls.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-09/23/article05.shtml