This is a new thread which has developed from an existing one:
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000044;p=5


Col:
'Hi guys,

I don't mind the questions, I love them. They are good questions that deserve an answer and I spend a deal of my time answering them and many more just like them. My only sadness is that I can't debate these issues with you at greater length. You raise many questions but where to begin? If you are serious about finding some answers to these excellent questions a great place to look is a book entitled "Letters from a Skeptic" by Greg Boyd. It covers answers to all of the questions you've raised here and casts doubt on some of the assumptions many people make concerning the Bible, Jesus, Christians and the Church.

I will answer two quickly, Jesus didn't say that all of us humans were sons and daughters of God, only those who believe. In fact, he called the religious leaders who opposed him sons of the devil (John 8:44). Secondly, your right PDM, Jesus' favourite title for himself was 'Son of Man'. That refers to the book of Daniel chapter 7 verses 13-14. It's actually a reference by which he claims to be the Messiah or even God himself!

I don't want to end the debate by submitting a massive response to all your doubts Somsuj. But if you ask a question, I will give you an answer - no holes barred, don't worry, no question will upset me and no doubt will offend me. We could start with why I consider we can trust the Bible? As I believe there are very good reasons. Or you could show me a contradiction in the Bible and I will give you a good reason for it. But you choose and I will answer as best I can. Is that fair? '


somsuj:
'Hi Col, I like your approach. a truly enlightened one should be able to control his/her anger, persevere with the ignorant - should be smiling all the time ( a bit like Dalai Lama - outwardly i mean ). you seem to have those qualities.

...

fair indeed. let me start asking questions and i will eagerly look for your discourse - let other people come in too and express their opinion. may be we should start a new thread - i shall leave that for PDM to decide.

to begin in the beginning : Genesis (New International Version)
1. general question : how this creation story can be true - especially now that we have evidence of evolution through millions of years?
2. contradiction :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."


-------------------------------------------------

however, a bit later:
quote:
-------------------------------------------------
Genesis 2
20 .... for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

so did God create a male & female human first and then created another - Eve?

[i think we have discussed this elsewhere in the forum]

i shall wait for your discourse eagerly.'

Yes, we have indeed discussed contradictions on the forum. Here are some threads: http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000011 [b]Lisa[/b]: [i]'Jesus is killed and put in his tomb. The next morning the tomb is discovered to be empty. Who made this discovery? Was it ... 1) John 20:1-4 - "Mary Magdalene went to the tomb" - ran to get Simon Peter and the one Jesus loved. 2) Mark 16:1 - "Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome" went in, saw a man, and ran away afraid without telling anyone. 3) Matthew 28:1 - "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" went in, talked to an angel, left to tell the disciples and ran into Jesus along the way. 4) Luke 24:1 - "Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others " (i.e. a few other women because they are referred to as "women" later). They go in, see 2 men, then leave and tell the disciples. Peter alone runs back to the tomb. Each account is different. All are in the Bible, in different books. Which book is correct? Each woman or group of women does something different. Which is correct?'[/i] [b]Lisa[/b]: [i]Matthew 1:2 "Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ" Luke 3:23 "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki ..." So these two apostles had COMPLETELY different genealogies for Joseph the stepfather. That strikes me as extraordinarily unusual for people who wandered around with Jesus and his mother all the time. [/i] [b]Lisa[/b] [i]'Jesus and his crew prepare to head out. Matthew 10:9 "Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep." Luke 9:3 "He told them: “Take nothing for the journey–no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic." So no staff. Very clear. Now Mark. Mark 6:8 "These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff–no bread, no bag, no money in your belts." So you CAN take a staff. That's a pretty clear violation of the other two orders. '[/i] [b]Peter May[/b] http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000136 [i]'Genesis to me is clearly an allegorical tale attempting to explain how life came about. Some believe it is the literal truth, but there are some confusing elements in the story. Adam & Eve were the first humans and they had two sons Abel & Cain, but after Cain kills Abel he is banished by god. But he protests " I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me ." - so who are these people outside Eden, and who made them? So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. So this suggests that god is not omnipotent - that there are places where he isn't present. And immediately afterwards 17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city ... So where did this nameless wife come from? The must be many people living in Nod, or a city wouldn't be needed. Who made all those people who live outside the lords presence?'[/i] [b]PDM[/b] [i]'According to my reading, there were no humans on this planet when dinosaurs ruled the earth. A very few people think otherwise, but that is the accepted, expert view. Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. Humans are newcomers compared to them. How do dinosaurs fit with the Bible creation story? Also, I am still wondering about my earlier question, about how Neanderthals and other early humanoids fit, as well? '[/i] (Sorry I didn't quote the thread details for all of these. )

Also:
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000023

Lisa: 'Which ten commandments are real?'

And:

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000015

When did Jesus Ascend to Heaven?


Lisa:
Please tell me, after Jesus died and was put into the tomb, how much time passed before he ascended into Heaven?

Budgie Jumper:
well.....after his resurrection, 40 days.

Act 1:1 Indeed, O Theophilus, I made the first report concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach,
Act 1:2 until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He elected, through the Holy Spirit,
Act 1:3 to whom also He presented Himself living after His suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God.

then Luke goes into how ascended....seems clear to me..

Lisa:
Ah but Luke actually gives the timeline. In Luke 24, the women go to the tomb and find it emtpy. Peter goes and finds it to be true (because they don't believe "the women" of course). Then "That Same Day" a group goes to Emmaus, 7 miles from Jerusalem, and they run into Jesus. They all ate together, and then "at once" returned to Jerusalem. He talks to them a bit, and then -

"50When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven."

So that's the same day. In the vicinity of Bethany. In the Act, which you quoted, it is 40 days later, *at* Mount Olivet.

I wanted to pipe in here, if I may. I just wanted to point out that Luke was a physician who was told stories, stories that were handed down to him, I believe he was actually a friend of Paul's. This might take into account why his interpretations are slightly different.

As far as the creation story, from what I understand, the first chapter is a general overview of creation whereas the 2nd chapter goes into more detail of how those things came about. I may be wrong, but this is what I've come to understand.

I'll have to look into the other contradictions later.

I've found the link for the earlier thread:

Topic: Bible Contradictions
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000109;p=1


Re:
As far as the creation story, from what I understand, the first chapter is a general overview of creation whereas the 2nd chapter goes into more detail of how those things came about. I may be wrong, but this is what I've come to understand. (Jesusfollower)

Maybe, but my reading has led me to understand that there are two stories because this part of Genesis is an amalgamation of two earlier creation myths. I'll look at it again if I can find it.

this is not a contradiction, but let us look at this critically : Genesis 4 (New International Version)
Cain and Abel


........Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD.
4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,
5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."


is not God's behaviour erratic and unreasonable ? Both have broought the best offering of their toil - and God favoured one and not the other ? i think it is God by his behaviour is responsible for Abel's death.

one of my friends postulated that the Old testament stories are written in such a way that it contains the message - obey and believe without questioning or else.................

what do you think ?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................

it seems the earlier thread about biblical contradictions did not discuss much about contradictions !!

I'm just sitting here saying nothing

i have posted this already Shinrai just in case......... so come off the fence and let us know what you think!