I would just like to point out that Christians are not the only religious sect who have internal difficulties at times within the church/temple/mosque. Any time you have a large group of people meet anywhere, anytime and about anything...you are going to have discord to some degree at some point in the history of the organization. It's just human nature. Doesn't make any of their organized religions bad. Doesn't make the people bad. Humans just behave badly at times.

You get together a group of Elks, Moose Lodgers, Freemasons, Girl Scouts, Junior Leaguers, Whomever,...sometimes there are going to be people who dislike each other and think others in the group are hypocritical or just plain jerks. And if a new person happens to join at the time of the dissension...well, they may be scared and never come back.

Unfortunately when a member of a religious group behaves in an asinine manner it looks bad for all in the group. I think people tend to over generalize concerning the matter of religious faults for some reason. I think Muslims are probably feeling some of that now at this point in history. And it may get worse for them.

I tend to not discriminate in ANY form be it religious, ethnic, sexual orientation, political, etc. I take people in on a per person basis. You can't call the majority of Christians hypocrites because you meet a couple of them during the course of your lifetime....just like you can't say all African Americans are thugs because you see on the news that crimes are commited by more African Americans in a certain area of the country or in a city such as Detroit or NY. It would be discriminatory to say that...but people do say that. I've heard it many times. And by people who are not Christian.

Of course I agree completely with the notion that a unified body of individuals gathering together for any reason are at their best when caring & giving to others. This attribute is what makes a person what to join up with the rest of them.

*sigh*

I'm not going to act Christlike. Calling you out on a technicality, Jews don't believe in your Christ -- so "Christlike" ends up sounding culturally insensitive. I'm not saying that you can't be all full of your Christ's love and all that. What I am saying is that Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, Wiccans, athiests, practitioners of Voodoo, practitioners of Santaria, and maybe another hundred or so religions that aren't Christcentric aren't going to find much value in your "Christlike."

Again: I'm not saying that your religion has no value -- I am suggesting that it doesn't have the same value for a lot of other people out there.

Do you think it is actually possible, Wandering Jew, for a Christian, or any other person committed to their religion, to think in terms of it not being right, or not being relevant, to everyone?

Christians - and others - often feel that it is their mission to 'save' others by helping them convert to the 'one true religion'. If they are right, then this is an amazing thing and it is their 'truth'.

I can see how 'Christlike' may sound culturally insensitive, but what if the Christ story were true? What if Jesus really was sent to save every one of us, regardless of ethnicity or culture, etc?

I said earlier that I found it hard to accept it when religious people say that this or that is right or true, etc, rather than someone's belief or opinion, but what if it really is true?

And if they think it is, how can they behave any differently, even when it doesn't seem right to others?

(I'm not really playing devil's advocate, I'm just trying to look at this from different sides - or perhaps that is devil's advocate! )

Huh. That's a chin-scratcher.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense for a person to be a committed member of a religion they don't believe is right; however, I think one can be a committed member of a religion and understand that not everyone else is going to have that same faith experience.

To this, I say that as far as I know, there isn't a quota of saved souls to get you into heaven. I don't know that I'm responsible for someone else's soul. That seems to be the height of hubris and vanity.

Bingo. My pastor & I had discussed this a long time ago. I was having problems w/another member of the church & she kindly pointed out that for me to leave the church based on this particular incident would have been foolish. A church is like a family (or should be IMO) & to disagree or argue w/a fellow member is just like fighting w/a sister or brother & that we're not going to get along w/every single person that walks through the door. I tried to point out in my post that the behavior of the majority should be considered & what the church actually does for its mission, things like that. Fact of the matter is, the church is there for one reason -- to do the work of God.

Exactly.

WJ,

I only said Christ-like b/c this is my experience. Like PDM said, all Christians know (Or better know) that to be Christ-like means to love your neighbor as yourself. So when I say Christ-like it is to model this behavior. I did not mean to sound culturally insensitive. I am well aware that others, especially on here, do not believe the things I believe. And there are many different religions (or none at all) floating about. My next door neighbors are Egyptian & have a totally different religion than me, but that still does not mean that I don't treat them the way I should according to my own beliefs.

And, I don't believe in a quota for saved souls either. Our job as Christians is to spread the good news, which means to tell people about Christ. It is not up to us to "save" them per se, they make that choice for themselves. If someone does not want to hear what we have to say than we are not to "shove it down people's throats". The people who do that are self-righteous IMO & do not take into account that some people simply do not want to accept the message; they choose not to believe it. Does this mean I'm doomed? Of course not. We are each responsible for our own souls, as you said, so I am agreeing w/you on this one.

PDM,

I agree w/you that organized religion is not the way to God. Each person finds God on their own, not necessarily by the church/mosque/temple they attend. I'm just saying organized religion was founded as a way for believers of the same faith to gather & worship, share time, etc. Can each person worship on their own? Of course. I don't think God will fault anyone for not joining a "church". However, a lot of people will find that joining a church & spending time w/fellow believers can be very rewarding & I personally look forward to worship time & other gathering times whether for Bible study, get togethers, mission work, whatever. This is where the sense of "family" comes in.

Jesusfollower...you have a female pastor?

And ahhhh, sorry that you quoted something from me full of typos. They got fixed! :rolleyes:

When I joined the church I am at now, we had just hired a female pastor. She stayed on for 5 years & this conversation was during those 5 years she was there. Since she has left, which was only in 2003, we have had 2 bridge pastors, an interim pastor & another bridge pastor which is currently working right now. We are very close to picking a candidate for permanent pastor though.

I am glad to see more women getting involved in leadership roles in the churches..I think it's long overdue!

Well, you might find this hard to believe, and I thought long and hard about it before deciding what to do, but at the time it seemed right - my children were all Christened / Baptised in the Church of England.

When my eldest was born (he's 19) I went to the Minister at the University and said that I wanted to mark the occasion, but I wasn't sure about my beliefs so thought that a Christening would be wrong. We had a lovely Thanksgiving / Naming service. When my second son arrived, I had another think and at this stage a Christening did feel right to me. Both boys were then Christened together. I got to know the vicar / priest quite well and we had many interesting theological discussions.

When my daughter was born, there was no question; if the boys were christened then she would be, too - and she was baptised by a lady vicar. My Mum's local vicar is also a lady.

I think that if you belong to a church where you feel comfortable and happy then that is great - and I can understand you enjoying its warmth and camaraderie, but I know of people who have had quite the opposdite - very negative experiences.

I can think of some really devoted members of congregations, who have been badly let down by people they really trusted.