somsuj,

I would say the comments posted by PDM and highlighted by you do follow Romans 3: 23,24...To paraphrase the scripture:

We (all humans) sin and fall short of the glory of God. If a person believes in Jesus, (redemption) he/she is covered by the grace given through Jesus, therefore blameless before God. And that gift of grace is free to those that simply believe and follow Christ.

Does that answer your question or make sense?

Also: I have always understood that children or people who have never heard the words of Jesus proclaimed are considered "innocent". I have asked this question many times throughout my life of pastors and a couple of theologians I have had the pleasure to meet. Yes, we all sin but there is an age of accountability; (but not an actual number) rather a mindset when one becomes accountable for their sins/choices. In other words, if a child dies, they would go directly to heaven. This also applies to people would would never have had the chance to hear about Jesus such as aboriginal tribes or any other person who has not had the choice to believe. This is what I have been told many times through protestant pastors and theologians. It seems fair to me too. Above all, I believe God is just in his judgment or will be just.

Originally posted by somsuj:

Oh ok, thank you. I did know this but when you mentioned the word 'salvation' I thought there was something more or different than what I knew.

A correction: Jews? Not so much with this "original sin" business. In fact, Jews don't have the same relationship to sin that Christians have. We don't feel like we're sin-ridden creatures in need of redemption. Jews feel that we're all just deeply flawed humans who should call our mothers more often. And would it hurt us to wear a scarf outside? Here, eat something.

There is a concept of the original sin in Judaism -- and that article the is important. In Hebrew, it's HaChet Hakadmon, or Sin of the First Man. This sin, however, doesn't mean much of anything. It's just the first in a long list of ways that humans did something they weren't supposed to.

But everybody does something they aren't supposed to at some point in their life.

For most Jews, sin is just another word for mistake -- and it's fine to make mistakes. The Christians come along, though, and they make the original sin into Original Sin -- capitalized and without the the article. It represents the entry of sin into the world; and somehow, the Christians have this idea that sin was never supposed to be here; that it was something that man created on his own.

Augustine is the one who really gives a lot of cache to Original Sin, and links the serpent to Satan (even though there's nothing in that Bible story to indicate that at all). Augustine also feels that Jesus dies to redeem man of this Original Sin, since the Original Sin led to all the other sins in the world, creating this barrier between G-d and his creations.

Here's a fun thing for Christians to do: find a Bible passage -- in either the "Old" Testament or the "New" Testament -- that uses the phrase "original sin." Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait.

Go on. (Just make sure you wear a scarf.)

...

Originally posted by Wandering Jew:

I don't buy off on the original sin idea...humans make mistakes (sin) period. There is not scripture passage that mentions "original sin". I also look at sin as mistakes and not more harmful than that. You won't find the vast majority of Christians walking around with their head down, grief ridden with sin. Most people don't beat themselves up about it. Same as you.

As far as the Jewish perspective on sin/mistakes, what about Yom Kippur WJ? And what about animal sacrifices of old? Surely Judaism teaches sin has some relevance.

Squeekychimp, I remember sitting in the lounge at university one day, feeling guilty about something - there was often something I was fretting about - and one of the lads started talking to me. When I told him that I was concerned about something I had or hadn't done (and, in truth, I can't think of much that I have ever done that was particularly 'SIN'-ridden) he asked if I was a Catholic. I told him that I didn't practice, but, yes, that was what I had been Christened - but how did he know? He said that Roman Catholics are the most guilt-ridden people he knew - and he was a non-practicing one himself.

Some time later, I was discussing 'sin' with a Christian friend who had just returned from a Billy Graham talk - and she was talking about how sinful we humans were - she was not Catholic, by the way.

It then fully dawned on me that this constant feeling of guilt was wrong. I told her, then, that I was not sinful and neither was she.

Maybe that was when I gave up on organised religion. I had been thinking of going to see Billy Graham, myself, but decided against it.
I do think that there are a number of Christians out there who carry sin around as a constant 'cilice'.

PDM:

I find that women in general often feel guilty about a multitude of things regardless of religious affiliation, or who don't subscribe to a religion at all. Just as I believe females worry more, I think they feel guilty more often than men as well. I think it's part and parcel of being the more sensitive sex. Women feel guilty if they leave their children too long at the sitters, women feel guilty if they go on a trip without their kids, women feel guilty for not calling their mothers more, women feel guilty all the time about their kids..and the list goes on. I think the emotion (?) of guilt is common in humans even without religion involved.

You may be right, Squeekychimp, but for that one friend, who was a very well-behaved, kind, person, she equated sin with religious belief, and, for Catholics, I think the example of the perfection of the Virgin Mother Mary is always there, making you feel that you simply cannot live up to her.

I have always equated sinning more with breaking the 10 commandments--and thought as long as I didn't break any of those I wasn't a sinner. I know I have made mistakes--but generally don't consider myself a sinner. That doesn't mean I don't feel guilty about a variety of things I have or haven't done in my life. I was just always curious about this being "saved" thing. I was raised Presbyterian, but always thought being Catholic was a good deal because you could sin, confess, do penance and start all over again. (I know that is probably over simplified.)Anyway all this discussion has result in me pulling out my Bible and cross checking some things. I think some early Church leaders have a lot to answer for, because instead of sticking with the simple words of Jesus, they took the ball and just kept running with it. It is interesting to ponder the Reformation and wonder what Martin Luther, John Knox, John Wesley etc would think of thier namesake churches today.

First of all, I want to make clear that, as my brother is fond of telling me, I'm no rabbi. I just think it's important for me to say this, so that no one who reads my posts here thinks, "Ah, finally: a definitive answer."

In Judaism, much like in anything else in life, there is no definitive answer.

So, Yom Kippur has already come and gone, back in October on the 13th. For those who missed it this year, but want to get into the fun of atoning for next year, it'll be on October 2 (why the difference? Jews follow a lunar calendar ).

Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year for Jews, and part of the "Days of Awe" -- or high holy days -- that occur in the fall. The theme of this holiday is atonement and reconciliation. Done something bad to a friend, neighbor, family member, or loved one? Yom Kippur is a good time of year to look for forgiveness.

Like with most things that happened thousands of years ago, the Yom Kippur of today isn't the same Yom Kippur from, say, the time of Joshua or Ruth. Today's Yom Kippur truly is more about requesting/earning and granting forgiveness to each other. Sure, we want to make sure we ask G-d for forgiveness for all those times we've transgressed against him -- but that interpersonal forgiveness is maybe a bit more important to contemporary Jews.

There are some out there -- like my brother the rabbi -- who see the entire Christian Bible as anti-Semitic. One of the ways he sees this is in how the crucifixion story of Jesus seems to supplant the need for Yom Kippur -- a holiday the Jews say G-d gave to them. If Christ dies for all sins, then what's the use of atoning, since Christ apparently went ahead and did the ultimate atoning for us?

I suppose that I have always equated sinning with things that make me feel guilty.

To me, the most memorable of the ten commandments is 'thou shalt not kill', yet I kill insects. I'm not sure it says that insects don't count. I wear leather and eat some meat. Does killing animals by proxy count?

I think someone said - was it Wandering Jew? - that the real translation was 'thou shalt not murder'- and I do agree that that is a/the major sin.

Rape and paedophile activities are up there, too. Are they mentioned?

I think one of the worst 'everyday' sins is stirring up trouble by gossiping negatively about people behind their backs. Is that mentioned in the Ten Commandments?