Was Jesus Real?

We have considered this question before, but it doesn't seem to have its own thread yet.

I have been reading 'Secrets of the Code', edited by Dan Burstein, where he looks at all sorts of writings, by people with various ideas, which relate to the thinking behind 'The Da Vinci Code'.

On page 205 he asks: Was Jesus Real?

To consider this, he gives details from an interview with Timothy Freke:

In your opinion, is there any evidence that Jesus lived?

None at all. The only evidence we have is fake. I would categorically say there is no evidence at all for the historical Jesus, but loads to suggest that the Gospel story is a myth. If someone found the Jesus story in a cave .. and said, "Look I've got this story of a man, he's born of a virgin, walks on water, teaches these amazing spiritual insights, and then dies and comes back from the dead, " I think everyone would go, "Well, this is clearly another myth, there's loads of them like this." It's only because we are so familiar with it that we can't see the obvious."


What are your thoughts on this?

Well I think Timothy Freke (who is he by the way?) gave an extreme view on this matter. Funnily enough i was discussing this very thing today at lunch-time with a dear friend. i have e-mailed him this topic and hope he will join the discussion.

Jesus (and John, James and Mary etc) was a very common name at that age. it is almost 100% possible that a man named Jesus, son of John & Mary, brother of James existed at that time in Jerusalem (there may have been two or three such persons). It is also possible that he had an agenda, did not like Roman occupation, did not like the Sanhedrin and did try to bring a new concept. He may well have been condemned as a rebel and died on the cross.

The very fact that life of Jesus is not documented in a way the lives of Roman Imperators are documented does not mean that there existed no man named Jesus. He was a common man - the names of common men and women are not documented individually in History - that does not mean they do not exist. Yes there is no evidence at all for the 'historical' Jesus - but that is no proof that Jesus did not exist.

The question was diverted to whether Gospel stories were myth - of course they are - we try to assert them as history, Gospel writers never did. A spirit cannot conceive, after child-birth a woman cannot remain virgin, a dead man can never come alive. these are events you are told to believe not as 'historical' facts.

I've mentioned Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy before - I find their ideas really thought-provoking.

They wrote 'The Jesus Mysteries; Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God?' and 'Jesus & the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians'.

There are pages on their books here:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/culture/thinking/3

http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/gandy_011701.htm

http://www.lauralee.com/frekegandy.htm86a/)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN...4126473-3857268

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN...4126473-3857268


They have a new book out, too:
The Laughing Jesus: Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN...4126473-3857268


Certainly there must have been many men named Yeshua / Joshua / Jesus living at that time and in that place. One of them might have been a spiritual man; a rabbi even, and he might have had followers.

According to the Bible, there was a charismatic local spiritual leader with quite a following, known as John the Baptist.

The point is, they might or might not have existed - we don't know.

Did Jesus exist as a Messiah?
Did / does Jesus exist as Son of God?
Could John have been the Messiah?

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it's quite a thing if one's whole life and belief system is based on this 'evidence' or, rather, the lack of it.

(Burstein's book addresses all sorts of relevant topics from a fairly unbiased viewpoint. I recommend it as a good read.)

I have a book by Don Cupitt (Dean of Emmanuel College Cambridge) & Peter Armstrong (BBC religious programmes producer) published in 1977, called 'Who was Jesus?'
Another good book.

The first chapter is: 'Did Jesus Live?'
I think that they believe that he did, but they state: 'It may be said at once that we do not have direct contemporary evidence of Jesus.' (p12)

One thing I did get from reading it, was that anything written about Jesus, in the Bible, that doesn't 'fit' with the way the church presents him, is likely to be evidence that he did exist.

This might be when he gets angry with a fig tree for not having fruit on it, or getting irritated with his mother, etc.

It may not be the case, of course; there might be other explanations. All this happened long ago and far away. We can't always appreciate the cultures who share our world today, so to understand the Middle East of 2000 years ago might be a bit too much to ask of us!


Here are some threads where I mention Cupitt & Armstrong and Freke & Gandy:

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000010;p=2#000023

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000009#000000

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000055;p=2#000015

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000098#000008

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000037;p=2#000029


http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000165#000006
(This thread contains some really interesting ideas!)

Thanks PDM, for the links. Ahter posting my last comments, i did found out who Timothy Freke is. You see, there is no reason to accept his ideas as truth, unique - yes, novel - yes, truth - well, we should wait and see.

The point is, they might or might not have existed - we don't know. - yeah! Timothy Freke did not say this, did he?

Did Jesus exist as a Messiah?
Did / does Jesus exist as Son of God
Could John have been the Messiah?

we can never expect to have historical proof of this - as i said - they were common people - history does not document this kind of common people - that does not mean that they did not exist!

...absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it's quite a thing if one's whole life and belief system is based on this 'evidence' or, rather, the lack of it.
I rather like to say the whole truth - we have no historical proof that He existed; we do not have any proof that He did not exist either. It has to be an open verdict.

as far as the life and belief system based on evidence or lack of - it is not a marvel at all. Two important characters in Hindu religion, Ram and Krishna are (completely) mythological, yet we have a complete cult based on them. so do not think it is unique.

people may say there must have been some core thoughts/ideas based o which these ideas have developed and those are likely to de truth. Yes it is possible, but who knows which ideas are the core and likely to be truth ?

To throw another perspective on this question 'was Jesus real'

- I was raised in the church right through Sunday School, Youth Group, was a Sunday School teacher, Youth Group leader etc. Never missing a Sunday if at all possible, my family all being very religious.

As a child if I questioned something in the bible that I couldn't understand, I was always given an answer that 'seemed' to make sense at the time.

All this in the first 30 years of my life to such an extent I'm sure you could refer to it as 'programming' for want of a better word.

Now when I read the question 'was Jesus real'? my automated response is in the affirmative because of those many years of indoctrination but upon reflection I then start to question that belief. After all, this was 2000 years ago and just how many factual documents (besides the Bible/other religious books)do we have to substantiate this?

I feel that we can't really know, for sure, whether Jesus existed or not; and, if he did exist, whether he was God incarnate, or not. (Though, logically, that does seem unlikely to me.)
Hence - agnostic.

Sonia, yes, 'programming', also, perhaps, indoctrination or brain-washing.

What is so wrong, I think, is the implication, or even threat, that if you question, or if you don't / can't believe, then you will end up in hell. That is a terrible thing to say to anyone, especially a child, I think.

Somsuj, when you say that Ram and Krishna are mythological, do you mean that no-one actually believes that they existed in any realm as real 'beings' / Gods?

Great question. I certainly believe they are mythological - but i am not a good example of modern Hindu. A Modern Hindu believes they existed in real life as incarnations of Lord (God) Bishnu. they are worshipped as Gods.

For me :
Facts : two of the worlds handful of epics are Mahabharata & Ramayana. Ramayana as far as the story goes, predates Mahabharata. Ramayana is story of Rama. the original Sanskrit story by a sage-poet called Valmiki has been retold several times through the agaes by several other poets. Ramayana in some Hindu circles is as good as a sacred religious text.
Mahabharata is the story of two clans of cousins, Pandavas - 5 brothers and Kouravas - 100 brothers. Krishna is an elder statesman, supporter of Pandavas in the war ensued.
added later : a part of Mahabharata - disclosure by Krishna of the reality of life to Arjun, one of the pandavas is a widely accepted religios text called GITA.
Much later stories were created about Krishna's birth, childhood in exile and return to power against his arch-enemy Kangsa. These are called Puranas.

Historical facts/confirmation - none so far.

Belief - none as far as i am concerned.

Great Story - YES. Everyone should forget DVC and read Illiad, Odessey, Mahabharata, Ramayana & Story of Gilgamesh. The old testament is a great story book too - fascinating.

[b]Genesis 9 (New International Version) [/b] [i] 8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." 12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth." [/i] this is what i mean by beautiful and fascinating story :) :) :)

Back to "Was Jesus Real"

I'm comfortable in this possibility.

There was a guy, who thought outside the square. He didnt necessarily like what he saw around him. He figured a wonderous principle of trying to be nice to people could be a good thing. He spoke his mind, and people liked what he said.

End of story. Now, I really doubt if human nature has altered much over 2000 years (sadly). The people who believed in what he had to say, had to quantify their deepset adoration of his courage and protect the new lease of life breathed into them, and so made things a tad bigger. Akin to "My dad is going to be a policeman" so to speak..... make him bigger than other authorities.

Sometimes a movie is made around one character. the character is solid, and the story develops (is developed) around them. Other times, there is a story set, and the character makes the story their vehicle. Cant help but feel that the character was already present, just needed a public relations team to really sell it all.

Another angle which has been mentioned before but not investigated too much furthur is the possibility that Jesus was an Egyptian king/prince, and led a revolt of 200 farmers if i recall correctly. There is historical account of this character, seperate from bibilical records. (again, I'm running from memory here, which is sometimes suspect )

try ginseng Shinrai, apart from memory it also improves something.........

yeah i too feel that a character was there and Josephus says so. i have no knowledge of the Egyptian king/prince and the revolt - i need to search for it now.