OK. I understand.

Well, yes, actually - I think it is very different.

If someone were to kill people accidentally whilst driving a car, that would be an accident. The driver might be in trouble for negligence, but he would be unlikely to be classed as a murderer. If he took a knife and stabbed some people, or if he ordered a hitman to shoot some people, that would be different.

Now I realise that this is not a direct comparison, but it's as near as I could get.

I suppose you could say that God may order a tsunami to kill people, or he may order a man to kill people, and there is no difference, but that doesn't sound quite right to me.

Anyway, either way, 'Why would we love and worship such a God? How can we say 'God is love'?'

PDM: "So where's the debate? If you don't care how people respond, where's the discussion? Why post on a discussion forum?"

What is there to debate? My intention is to provoke though rather than have a debate. I've always felt that what I contend is upheld by the evidence that's on my site: That faith in God and faith in what the Bible claims of God is not one and the same.

Believing that each is their own priest before God in all things I avoid being specific in what I think one should believe or not believe. In that way, liberty of faith is maintained and one is free of being in bondage to the teachings of another.

Squeekychimp, isn't afraid to argue with the big boys about the role of women in the Bible and from what I've seen, nobody here is arguing that God is that butcher in 1 Samuel. That's why I say you can work it out for yourselves. For the truth of God is within your Spiritual heart.

Wayne

PDM:

The point I'm trying to make in regards to God and natural disasters is this: Everyone wants to think of God in terms of being this big benevolent cuddly teddy kind of a guy. And in those terms only. My thought is, I think he is certainly capable of both love and anger! If you allow God to exist in your mind, and that he created us, don't you also ask the question, well why do we die then? Why did that tsunami in Asia (Which God could control) kill 200,000 people? Why if God loves us so much do innocent people have to be wiped out in natural disasters like that? I'm not saying God made it happen to punish anyone, please don't mistake my words. But this omnipotent God didn't give us a world to live in that was all rainbows and flower petals dropping from the sky. Bad things happen naturaly without interference from man. Makes me wonder what the heck he's doing. Having 200,000 people die in a natural disaster does not show God's love. My question is...Is he capable of more? I dont know the answer, but I wonder about it.

Wlh:

Obviously you did not read thru the other postings I mentioned about people debating the words or works of God in the bible. What you propose has been brought up before. You are not the first.

Never said i was

With regard to Samuel-again I am going to be picky about context--I did a search for all references to Amalek-and this is what I found:

Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exd 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn [that] the LORD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Num 24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek [was] the first of the nations; but his latter end [shall be] that he perish for ever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deu 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deu 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it, [that] thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget [it].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jdg 3:13 And he gathered unto him the children of Ammon and Amalek, and went and smote Israel, and possessed the city of palm trees.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jdg 5:14 Out of Ephraim [was there] a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Clearly God felt the people of Amalek--deserved everything they got for what ever they did as Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt--cos he kept bringing it up. But clearly God felt that the punishment should come from the Jews as they were the injured party.

I have always had a little difficulty with the overbearing God we see in the Old Testament and the more gentle loving God--Jesus preaches in the New Testament--is it just a matter of perceptions--the historians of the Old Testament portraying God as they saw and felt they needed to survive--after all the orders of God in the Old Testament came thru the prophets or leaders. Moses was losing control of the tribe when he received the 10 Commandments from the burning bush. The order to wipe out the Amalek comes thru Samuel, while God as seen thru Jesus is the more benevolent father--is that what was needed at the time. I prefer to think about the more gentle God and not the wrathful one--but that does not mean that he does not exist.

I am not a big believer in the Bible must be absolutely correct because God would not let lies be included.

Wow hope this makes sense.

I've read your posts Squeekychimp and Kateyes and you make similar points, I think - that, in the Bible & in real life 'God' allows, or even arranges for, horrific things to happen to certain people.

It may be through a natural disaster (tsunami, volcanic eruption); it might be as the result of someone's criminal or negligent behaviour (murder, road accident); it might even be because God orders it to be done (Noah's flood; the horrors of 1 Samuel).

'Why if God loves us so much do innocent people have to be wiped out in natural disasters like that? I'm not saying God made it happen to punish anyone, please don't mistake my words. But this omnipotent God didn't give us a world to live in that was all rainbows and flower petals dropping from the sky. Bad things happen naturaly without interference from man. Makes me wonder what the heck he's doing.' [Squeekychimp]

'I have always had a little difficulty with the overbearing God we see in the Old Testament' [Kateyes]

(I hope that I have interpreted this correctly.)

Why, then, do we say 'God is love'? This is meant to be the same God whom 'we' worship in Christian churches. Why do we do this? If there is this vengeful side of God, why is 'he' worshipped? Is it because of fear? How can 'gentle Jesus meek & mild' be this particular God in human form?

I appreciate, Kateyes, that you say: 'I am not a big believer in the Bible must be absolutely correct' but isn't the Bible where Christians obtain their information about God and Christianity?

As Peter said elsewhere, if the Bible is the message, we shouldn't need interpreters, yet, without either the Bible or interpreters, where would Christianity be?

I have said before that I would not want to belong to a religion that arranged or allowed for unfair, cruel, etc, things to happen to its flock - or to anyone else.

After reading this part of Samuel, I wonder if it can possibly be morally right to belong to the Judaic or Christian religions, if this is how 'God' is perceived.

Well, Wayne, this is a discussion forum. If you post an item but won't then debate it, then the discussion is likely to dry up and the thread will fold.

Usually, if thought is provoked, discussion and debate ensue. If you place a post, you are likely to be asked questions and you will be expected to 'converse'. That's just how it works, I'm afraid.

My personal guess is that, as with the flood, something important happened and people put it down to God. But I am agnostic.

I feel that this comment, and the story in Samuel, lead to certain questions:

Was God to blame?
Did / does God have the capacity for this kind of behaviour?
Does God even exist?
If God exists what is 'he/she/it' and what does / can 'God do?

If God is 'God' why would he allow these horrors - and why would he allow them to be carried out in his name?
'Nobody here is arguing that God is that butcher', but the Bible, the supposed 'Word of God' says that it is indeed so.

And, as Squeekychimp pointed out, if God is omnipotent & omnipresent, etc, then he also allowed the tsunami, the Holocaust, the ripping apart of one animal by another, etc.
So maybe God is capable of the deeds in Samuel?!

This is the God of the Bible - the God of Christians. Can you be a Christian and yet deny, condemn, disagree with, or disbelieve in, this God?

How does that make sense when the Bible and its contents are the source of knowledge for Christianity?