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#125889 - 05/18/06 01:21 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
kateyes Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 1866
Loc: Michigan
I agree with Janimal on many of his points--I do not believe Man is inherently evil--I do not believe in original sin. How can you have ever held a sleeping child and believe there is sin or evil in that child? This is some of the stuff that turned me away from organized religion-I do not care for being manipulated--and to be told the only way to worship is in a church and the only way to heaven is via Jesus doesn't sit well with me.

I have copied over something I posted on another thread because in my mind it fits here as well.

Quote:
I consider myself Christian--because the teachings of Jesus make sense to me and I try to live my life by those teachings. I also believe in re-incarnation and that our various lives are intended to be a progression towards a more perfect soul. I believe we suffer in one life for the sins of previous lives(I think maybe that is what hell is). Years ago I came across this definition of heaven and it works for me:

QUOTE
heaven:
The abode of God and the blest spirits; the dwelling place or state of existence of righteous souls after their life on earth. QUOTE


The part about the state of existence of righteous souls struck a cord for me and has been in my belief system ever since. Now if you look at definitions and synonyms of "righteous"--these words come up alot--honest, loyal, virtueous, good, honorable, true, incorruptable, upright---Please note Christian or belief in Christ isn't coming up here, please note it says blest spirits, not believing spirits. It says righteous souls not non-sinning souls. So in my view(for what it is worth), A righteous soul will find its place--whether it is a Christian soul or not.
_________________________
"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion." Abraham Lincoln

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#125890 - 05/18/06 01:35 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
Call it a scare tactic call it a ploy to make money. But when you compare yourself, from early childhood to now, against God's laws are you perfect? Have you been able to keep all 10 of God's commandments? You see even if you don't believe in the traditional story of Adam & Eve, and you don't believe in God, you have to admit that 5 through 10 of the Commandments are a good basis to live your life by.

Just based on 5 through 10 alone have you been able to keep those?

5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
- Um ok EVERYONE has broken this one at one time or another.

6. Thou shalt not kill.
- Not hard for most to keep until you realize that Jesus said if you hate your neighbor, brother... you've committed murder in your heart.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
- Again not hard for most until you realize that Jesus also said that if you look on a woman with lust you've commited adultary in your heart.

8. Thou shalt not steal.
- How many of you have downloaded music off the internet? Enough said.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
- Lies hmm who hasn't told one of those, ever?

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.
- Wanting something that isn't yours jealousy, envy..
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#125891 - 05/18/06 01:50 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
What exactly is the definition of evil? Is evil mearly doing wrong for doing wrongs sake? Does evil have to be tied to murder, sex, or theft? No evil, as it entered this world was one thing disobedience.

The first sin wasn't murder it was Adam & Eve disobeying God. Now children when born cannot comprehend right or wrong. They do not comprehend the consequences of their actions. They are however, born into a fallen world, and their bodies are geared towards disobedience.

To prove this simply look back to the two year old who's parent tells them "Don't do this" and they do it anyway. While the average child doesn't have the impulse to kill someone they do have the impulse to disobey.

You see any disobedience is sin. Sin is nothing more than us telling God "We don't need to follow your rules, I believe I can get by on my own rules". Like the child who disobeys and pays the consequences, the parents knew would eventually happen, we to will pay consequences that will eventually come calling.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#125892 - 05/18/06 02:23 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
Quote:
all 10 of God's commandments
Just 10? The actual Hebrew Bible, which is ignored in favor of the pick and choose version adopted by Christians, lists many more commandments.

Through the history of Judaism, the rabbis argued, bickered, and studied and came up with a number closer to 613. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot

I like the 10 commandments expecially because of the first one. I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have NO OTHER GODS before me.

So, that implies to me, an ignorant human, that there are OTHER GODS, and this God, the God of the Hebrews, wants his people to follow only him, and not the other ones.

Many people "interpret" that statement as meaning, don't worship false gods such as idols. But in every translation I've seen it's "OTHER GODS"
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments

Also, since we're talking about the 10 commandments, it's interesting to study the differences, some subtle, some not so subtle, between the versions used by Jews (two versions), Protestants, Catholics and the various denominations within Protestantism.

So, as you quote the "10 commandments" remember that even among Christians, there is no definitive interpretation.

Quote:
Sin is nothing more than us telling God "We don't need to follow your rules, I believe I can get by on my own rules".
But what are God's rules? And are rules handed down nearly 4000 years ago still literally valid today? Perhaps the basics haven't changed all that much, don't murder, don't steal, etc. but the definition of those have changed over the years.

What is theft? Whose definition of theft is the right one?

Clouding morals in religious mumbo jumbo and superstition does nothing to further morality. Especially when there is NO NEED for morality in the Christian faith, since only acceptance of Jesus is required for membership.
_________________________
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings

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#125893 - 05/18/06 03:18 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
skr Offline
Regular

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 62
Loc: WA state, USA
Behavior is taught and behavior is learned, but we are all born with a conscience. We either choose to follow it, or we choose not to. A child who is brought up well can still choose a wicked life, just as a child who is raised poorly can be saintly. We are all born with the potential for both. Most of us fall somewhere in between. It's the law of averages, and it's very simple. There can never be good without evil, and vice versa.

A child is a blank slate, not "geared toward disobedience". A child knows nothing of right or wrong, obedience or disobedience. Children emulate the people closest to them, but despite lessons, guidence, experience, and consequences, ultimately a child will decide his or her own behavior.
_________________________
"Be great in act, as you have been in thought"

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#125894 - 05/18/06 03:23 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
mrskongcrete Offline
Companion

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 158
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:
What is theft? Whose definition of theft is the right one?
It would be very interesting to me to see how many people actually have a different definition of that! Come on now.....is that an argument simply for the sake of argument? What is your def of theft???
_________________________
"What if you're wrong? What if there's more? What if there's hope you've never dreamed of hoping for?"-Nicole Nordman

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#125895 - 05/18/06 03:54 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
This was an original point of discussion of the early Church. The apostles being Jewish felt that ALL new Christians, even Gentiles, had to subscribe to the laws of the Jewish faith as well as belief in Christ. In fact many of the Apostles were upset with Paul for even teaching the gentiles. It was decided by the early Church that the law of Moses had been fulfilled in Christ, and that new converts were not required to get circumsised, not eat pork...

As for are the 10 Commandments still being valid today, again let's just hit 5-10. Do you feel it's ok to kill, steal, lie, dishonor your parents, sleep with someones wife/husband, envy or be jealous of others. Will those things really make you happy? The laws were not meant to hinder us from having fun they were meant so that we would have a more fulfilling life.

As for what is theft? Please my 4 year old can answer that one. Taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission. Nothing cloudy about that.

Christianity is not a club, which requires membership. It's a lifestyle. The true Christian walks with God speaking to God through Prayer and listening to God via the Holy Spirit and God's Word the Bible.

And finally yes God mentions other gods. But the people of the time knew exactly who these other gods were. It is not a confession by God that there are other Gods it is simply and acknowledgement that society as a whole had begun to worship other things as god. By this time the Jewish people had encountered the Cannanite gods, the Egyptian gods, the Moabite gods... All or most of these were in some form or another nature worship.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#125896 - 05/18/06 03:58 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
Actually it is an argument for the sake of argument. Isn't that what all these posts are doing? You are no more going to make me a Christian than I am going to make you a Jew.

But it sure is interesting to read and explain and think about all these things. I like how PDM keeps everything from becoming nasty too. Religion is "the big one" and can become nasty.

It would be interesting to see a debate on the meanings of "theft".

Probably another post.

Taking a piece of watermelon from a sample rack wouldn't be considered theft.

Sampling cheese or deli meat wouldn't be considered theft.

Would taking a piece of candy from the bins as a sample be theft?

Would selling your stock before the company crashes be theft?

Time is the most valuable commodity available. Can time be stolen? If I file a court case for a ridiculous reason, am I stealing court time from a needier case?

Can someone steal from a food bank?

Interesting indeed.

Theft must be bound up somewhere with restitution.

It's interesting that the commandments don't talk about restitution. Since we are all imperfect, yet forgiven (if we subscribe to the Jesus cult) there is no need to make restitution.
_________________________
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings

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#125897 - 05/18/06 05:11 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
Actually restitution was covered by subsequent books in the Bible, but would not be needed if the original commandments were met.

For example, several cities were set up for people who had murdered. The killer would be free to roam anywhere within that city, but would more than likely be killed by the family of the deceased if they stepped out of the city.

Early Jewish society was governed by judges, whose job it was to hand out judgement. This role was then taken on by the king, when Israel adopted a monarchy. Moses was the original judge, but at the advice of his father in law recruited several Godly men to judge in his place, so that he could concern himself with leading the people.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#125898 - 05/18/06 05:24 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
I find it interesting that you find the followers of Jesus to be a cult, and feel that there is no need to make restitution if you belong to that cult.

Again, Christianity is more that just a set of rules and a belief in Christ. Most Americans would tell you that they believe in God, and that they believe in Jesus. However a large number of those cling to a belief for lack of something better to believe.

If more people actually followed Jesus and lived by his teachings then the world would be a very different place. Unfortunatly for Christianity some of those which claim to follow Christ, have committed some of the worst attrocities known to man in the name of Christ. Hitler used the reasoning that the Jews killed Jesus, and so they must be evil. When in truth it was to the Jews that Jesus came. He was their chosen one, their messiah, their kinsmanredeemer.

Jesus himself was a Jew, who believed in the laws of Moses and followed them. The typical approach to Christianity you describe where people pick and choose what they want to believe or follow is a result of our sinful nature and our desire to follow our own way.

Don't get me wrong, I am far from perfect. While I strive to live a life that models Christ, I still get things wrong. But it is my walk with Christ which sets me straight. As I do the things I shouldn't do it is God's Holy Spirit, which guides me and informs me of my wrong doing. It is then my responsibility to correct my behavior, and follow my Lord.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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