We have discussed sin and associated topics on a number of threads.

Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins and that all who repent and believe in him will go to Heaven.

There's the issue of original sin. It's in the Old Testament but Jews & Christians perceive it differently.

'.. "original sin" -- something we Jews have no truck with. The idea of "original sin" is an Augustinian conceit. The Genesis story for Jews isn't about blame or sin -- it's a "just so" story to explain why there's pain in childbirth and why the earth doesn't yield easily to the plow.' [The Wandering Jew]
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000015;p=4#000058

Can we really be forgiven for doing terrible deeds if we are sorry enough, yet be cast into hell for doing 'very little'?

What do you understand by the term: 'atonement'

Are we born sinful? Are babies tainted by sin?

Are other religions as concerned with sin and guilt as Christianity is?

There are relevant threads here:
Topic: Sin
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000159#000000

Topic: Eve and the Apple
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000015;p=1

Topic: Why Are you Good?
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000027#000008

Here's an interesting thread:
Topic: 'Must You LOATHE Yourself To Become A Christian?'
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000189#000001


So, sin, forgiveness, reprentance, redemption, etc. - what do they mean to you?

skr: 'So you believe that without Christ, people do not have the ability to avoid sinful behavior and lead good lives? '

Believer:

'Dude even with Christ we don't avoid sinful behavior and lead good lives. Let's look at this from God's point of view. We were given a set of laws called the 10 Commandments.

...

So even with Christ in my life I still manage to break atleast one of those a day. Am I perfect? No. Am I forgiven? The Bible says that if I confess my sins God is willing and just to forgive them. So yes. Christianity is not just a belief it's a lifestyle.
Based on these 10 Commandments and the fact that if I just broke 1 per day for the rest of my life, God still would not find me perfect in his site, then I'd be on my way to hell.

The good news is that Christ, who is in me, has begun the process of changing me. Will I ever be perfect? No, but my desire to sin has gotten lower because of my relationship with Christ.

So to answer your question yes. I do believe that without Christ, people do not have the ability to avoid sinful behavior and lead good lives? Because once again what is good enough for us is not nearly good enough by God's standards.

Ok the church has been commissioned to spread the news of Christ. The people within the church are still sinful in nature, because they are just people.

The Bible says that "ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" so that means everyone. So everyone within the Church has committed, and will more than likely commit sin. The call to repent is a call to first acknowledge this sin, and accept Christ. Only then can HE begin to clean up your act.

As for that being a problem with the church, absolutely. People look to us as "should be perfect", and we're not. We're just a work in progress.'

believer:
'The bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags, it also says that faith without works is dead. Is this a contradiction? No. Put into the correct context it simply means that everything we do to try and earn our way into heaven is useless because we still sin.

On the flip side once we put our faith in Christ for salvation (admittance into heaven) then we, as Christians, should be easy to spot based on our works.

You see part of the problem with the humanistic way of thinking, is the thought that we are inherrintly good in nature, and it is that good that will get us into heaven.

The Bible teaches the exact opposite. We are basically a fallen creation, and by God's standards evil. As a fallen creature the only way to gain admittance into the presence of a pure and perfect God, is through the blood of a pure and perfect savior.

Is it fair? Of course it is. As God's creation we are subject to his laws. It is our constant refusal to obey, and in some cases even acknowledge these laws that has flawed us. '

this is where i severely past company with christianity. we are not born inherently evil - this is a lie perpretated by the church to scare us into turning up on sundays to be told how inherently evil we are so that we can be scared enough to return again next sunday, etc etc. and oh, look - there is a way out - jesus - he will show us the error of our ways and only through his forgiveness can we overcome our shortcomings. and, oh yeah, if you try to follow any other teachings to imrove yourself you're off to hell.

to me this is nothing short of manipulation. this whole side christian doctrine is purely contrived to keep the numbers up - as long as we're all feeling good and guilty the vatican or whoever will do ok.

well, count me out. i do not believe we are inherently evil, as i happen to believe in such a thing as the goodness of humanity. yes, there are many things in society to set us on the wrong track, but there are many philosophies to help us out with that. and as for forgiveness, that can only come from society and within ourselves.


what is the worth of forgiveness in the christian sense? i don't want to wait until i die to be forgiven - it's much better to be able to square your actions with yourself and society day by day. to me, taking reponsibility for yourself is the only way to become a decent human being and its the one thing christianity won't let you do.