So how would you lable me? I'm certainly not by definition agnostic, I believe and accept there is a God. I do not search, but I will by no means sing praise or bow down. If God is as kind and just and understanding as religion wants us to believe, then why does a being that is all powerful, all knowing, need people to worship him? Methinks God must have an ego problem if people interpret His/Her word as fact to justify killing in His/Her name.

I show my faith in everyday life, by being kind and helpful, loving my family, tending to my business. Is this not what many religions say is the path to heaven? By walking the path of righteousness I prove myself. But it seems over time this perception of God has become distorted. The bible is only stories, written to direct people in their everyday lives. It is by no means complete and many stories have been changed numerous times to fit the needs of the church. Parts are missing and other needed writing are left out.

When we take the word of the Bible as absolute fact, we distort our perceptions and our understanding of others. If all will be judged in time and everything revealed. We just need to remember that all religion stems from one source, the need for closure, the promise that there is something better awaiting us. Born thousands of years ago before, Jesus, Buddha and all other great figures of religion came to light, humankind worshiped as one. The Earth was their Mother and they were grateful to all She gave them, there was no right or wrong way to worship for all understood they were equal in Her eyes.

But we must remember that Nature is the Child of God. When we dishonor Her with senseless religious conflicts we dishonor God. And to dishonor God is Blasphemy, so who can safely stand before another and claim religious superiority or correctness?

PDM, so called Christians have committed atrocities in the name of Jesus, but in reality they were not following the Scriptures. Had they followed the Scriptures, they would not have committed these atrocities. The inquisitionist’s, the Crusaders, Hitler and his storm troopers will all pay for what they did. I do not focus on them. I focus on my relationship with God. I focus on ensuring that I do the will of God and not my own or the will of others. There will always be men of extremes that will do what pleases them. That is why I do not blame the whole Islamic community for what some of them do. However, I do not accept the statement that their holy writing do not instigate intolerance and hate towards others.

[quote]Originally posted by cherokee moon: [b] So how would you lable me? I'm certainly not by definition agnostic, I believe and accept there is a God. I do not search, but I will by no means sing praise or bow down. If God is as kind and just and understanding as religion wants us to believe, then why does a being that is all powerful, all knowing, need people to worship him? Methinks God must have an ego problem if people interpret His/Her word as fact to justify killing in His/Her name. I show my faith in everyday life, by being kind and helpful, loving my family, tending to my business. Is this not what many religions say is the path to heaven? By walking the path of righteousness I prove myself. But it seems over time this perception of God has become distorted. The bible is only stories, written to direct people in their everyday lives. It is by no means complete and many stories have been changed numerous times to fit the needs of the church. Parts are missing and other needed writing are left out. When we take the word of the Bible as absolute fact, we distort our perceptions and our understanding of others. If all will be judged in time and everything revealed. We just need to remember that all religion stems from one source, the need for closure, the promise that there is something better awaiting us. Born thousands of years ago before, Jesus, Buddha and all other great figures of religion came to light, humankind worshiped as one. The Earth was their Mother and they were grateful to all She gave them, there was no right or wrong way to worship for all understood they were equal in Her eyes. But we must remember that Nature is the Child of God. When we dishonor Her with senseless religious conflicts we dishonor God. And to dishonor God is Blasphemy, so who can safely stand before another and claim religious superiority or correctness? [/b][/quote]:)The Bible is not just stories, it was written through man by a perfect God. Now if we accept a perfect God then we say he must be able to write a perfect book, so it is very easy to prove the Bible false if you can prove it states inaccuracies. One of the ways the Bible proves it is written by God is its predictive prophecies, being able to predict the future is something only God can do. Does the Bible do this? Yes, we see Fulfilled Prophecy – Confirmed by the Scriptures and Archaeology No on can look into the future and predict things, but the Bible does this on a number of cases. • General Predictions - 107 • Messianic Prophecy – 98 Ralph Muncaster – An engineer and former atheists - set out to disprove the Bible. Wrote a book called “A Skeptic's Search for God: Convincing Evidence for His Existence (available at Amazon.com 2002) Ralph O. Muncaster developed a statistical test, he felt a perfect God should be able to make a perfect book. So he felt if he could prove one prophecy false it would expose the Bible as a farce and a perfect God couldn’t have done that. The prophecy must be perfect for the Bible to be made by a perfect God He found that books that had been written centuries in advance (Old Testament) predict the future were 100% perfect. His statistical analysis show the odds of that were 10 to the 100th power , The same odds as winning 17 state lotteries in a row by buying only 1 ticket for each, 24 times struck by lightening in a single year, There are only 10 to the 79th protons in all of the universe Archeology Nelson Guric a Reformed Jewish Scholar, he is not a Christian, in his book “Rivers in the Desert” It may be stated that no archaeology discovery has ever contraindicated a biblical reference. Dr. Jay O’Kinomen of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by archeaologist’s, not one find has ever contraindicated or denied one phrase, clause or sentence or in the Bible. These are world-renowned archaeologists making these statements. You state that it has been changed several times, that is not true, secular historians, note I said SECULAR have several tests to prove if documents we have now are the same as the ancient documents. The most recent are the Dead Sea Scrolls in which were determined to contradict NOTHING in our Bibles of today. How Ancient documents are determined to be authentic Dr. Montgomery, writer of over 140 books and articles, historian, lawyer, multiple masters and doctorates from schools such at; Cornell University, University of California at Berkley, Wittenberg University, University of Sussex England, University of Chicago and Professor at the University of Lutton England The new testament books were not written down more than a century after the events they describe, but during the life times of those involved in the accounts themselves, therefore, the new testament must be regarded by Scholars as a competent primary source document of the first century. The books of the new testament were written during the times of the writers What is the manuscript evidence for the Bible? C. Sanders in his book “Introduction to Research in English Literary History” list 3 criteria schools use to determine whether an ancient document is genuine. These tests are used for both Secular and Biblical or Religious Documents The Tests Bibliographic Test Scholar evaluates all the current copies of a document and tests them for consistency The greater the number of manuscripts available that are consistent with each other over a long period of time, the more genuine the originals can be determined. Many Ancient Documents have been subjected to this test that scholars have determined the copies are genuine or authentic. “The Gallic Wars” by Julius Caesar Caesar’s conquest of Gall (modern day France) during the first century. This is documented in every history book on ancient Rome. Considered Authentic by Scholars 10 copies of the original writings exist written 1000 years after Caesar’s death. “The Early History of Rome (Books I-V)” by Titus Livy (available at Amazon.com. Only a portion of a copy made 400 years after the original, and the only full version written 1000 years later. Considered Authentic by Scholars “The Annals of Imperial Rome (14 - 70 AD)” by Publius Cornelius Tacitus (Michael Grant Translator) around 100ad (available at Amazon.com. 20 copies available dated 1000 years after his death Considered Authentic by Scholars “The Iliad” by Homer 643 manuscripts exist, but the earliest know manuscript dates from the 13th century Considered Authentic by Scholars Historians give credibility to all of these ancient documents even though they have been written 100’s and 1000’s of years after the original and do not question their authenticity The Bible has more copies of ANY literature in History! 24,970 of New Testament manuscripts exist. Unprecedented in all of literature and in all of history 5,686 Greek manuscripts 19,284 other language translations No other collection of ancient documents come close the number of manuscripts we have today of the new Testament. FF Bruce states the evidence for our new testament writings is so much greater than for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one questions; if the new testament were a collection of secular writings, there authenticy would be generally regarded as beyond all doubt. [And lastely, The Law of Non-Contradiction states: Two contradictory statements can’t both be true. They can both be false but both can not be true. A scientist can not take two conflicting measurements for the same thing. The laws of logic must apply to reality, if you deny the Law of Non-Contradiction you may as well talk about a one ended stick, it can not even be pictured let alone stated. Therefore all religions can be wrong, but not all can be right. from a lecture by noted Philosopher Ravi Zacharias] :)

We all have to deal with death, we all have to either believe in life after death, or what evoultion takes us to, total death, nothing else. We all must believe in a religion if we do not accept the claims of evolution. That religion must follow reality and what we see and experience, its religious doctrine can not contradict itself. The above hopefully has stimulated some of you to find the truth, and there is truth, reality observed everyday confirms it, if you say "I see a man over there and he is a goat, that statment violates the Law of non condradiction.

Peace and Love be with us all, Jesus Said, "love one another as yourself" on this forum and many other places, we fail to do this.

P.S. forgot to give credit for most of the info was from “CCHC-Davinci Code, The Truth Behind the fiction.” which can be subscribed to by 1. start iTunes and then go the iTunes Music store 2. On the left bar click on Podcasts. 3. Search Podcasts by typing Davinci code 4. click and subscribe for free to “CCHC-Davinci Code, The Truth Behind the fiction.”

my dear Steven Case,
anybody can make predictions if they are vague enough, Nostradamous comes to mind. If I were to predict at some point the earth would split open and the ground would scream its displeasue, that could very likely come true,As it would be interpreted as either a volcano eruption or an earthquake. Same if I were to predict "that the sky will weep and the unbelievers will be washed away". Ergo, a flood would be the interpretation and within months would come true.

I respect your dedication and absolute faith towards your religion, I admire that you stand by your beliefs. But I also stand beside mine, in response to " The above hopefully has stimulated some of you to find the truth", I would like you to know this, there are many truths and no truths, ones truth is anothers fiction and vice-versa, on a cosmic scale there is no absolute truth. Over time everything changes, what is held as the absolute truth today may just very well become the joke of tomorrow. We cannot predict how human life will change and religion will differ hundreds or even thousands of years from now. Even throughout human history long before the coming of Jesus, we worshipped in entirely different ways. For many that all came to an end with the coming of christianity. Rome and Greece fell to it by slaughter, my Cherokee ancestors by much the same way. I have no desire to worship this "perfect god", if man and woman was created in his image and we are flawed, then logic would denote that our creator was flawed as well. You may counter that humans are flawed due to original sin, however, as there is no perfect or absolute truth. then original sin was invented as means to make many submissive, to create what I like to call "a hive mind", we all think like one then nobody questions and ruins that "perfect peace".

The blood that over zealous religious bigots (please forgive that terminalogy) left on my bloodline, has stained any chance I ever had at believing in this perfect God.

I think the problem lies not within the God itself, but the people who have distorted such teachings, who have twisted such words into something almost hideous. Religion is supposed to be a beautiful thing that brings people together, we have become so divided over who is right and who is wrong we have lost sight of what matters most: loving thy family and thy neighbor.
Threatening people with hell and damnation is not the way to bring beliefs together. It must be made on a matter of principle and patience.
seems I have lost myself to rambling, my apologies as Chrisitanty is a very touchy subject for me. I lost many family on the "Trail of Tears"
and I have no desire to forgive this injustice yet.

And me too, though not on the Trail of Tears. My family were killed in Concentration Camps, and expelled from Germany and Spain and England, and most other "Christian" countries. They were burned in Spain by "Christians", they were hunted down and killed in Russian pogroms by "Christians."

And today in America I watch as "Christians" put crosses on the Statue of Liberty, and pass laws based on their view of the Bible. And teach science as they did before the 1600s, and condemn most of the world's population to their concept of "hell."

this is the one country on earth that was founded on religious freedom, where the State didn't support one religion over another, and all were free to worship whatever. And yet that is being eroded quickly in a quest to make America a "Christian" nation.

I've made a choice. I reject Jesus as God. God is God, with no need to slaughter a "son" on anyone's behalf.

for the benefit of fish:

well done, you've just managed to collect together most of the quotes that the islamic extremists twist for their ends. it's like quoting the parts of the bible the kkk use to justify themselves.

by way of contrast: sura2:8,62

those who believe (in the qur'an) and those who followthe jewish (scriptures), and the christians and the sabians - any who believe in allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward in the lord; on them shgall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

it should be bourne in mind that here 'allah' does not mean the god of the muslims, but god in general.

this is far more representative of islam as i undserstand it than any of your half interpreted snippets... ok, 350 or so out of 400 terrorist groups may be islamic. SO WHAT??? its up to you whether you interpret that as fallout from an agressive religion, or just the simple fact that there are more muslims being opressed out there than anyone. don't forget, terrorist groups don't form without some prior injustice.

But don't forget also, that most of the oppressed Muslims are living in dictatorships.

Indian Muslims aren't oppressed, and they are doing very well in Indonesia and America too. Muslims living in democratic societies are doing well.

In the Middle East, under the various Kings and Emirs, they aren't fairing too well.

And please let's not get into the Palestinian issue here.

No, indeed, this thread is about:
'Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.'