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#126209 - 05/31/06 06:18 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
...
[b]I believe in good people doing good things.[Spooky]

So do I but it's not what you do it's who you know that gets you into heaven. [Believer]

.... [/b]
The letter of James - ie a letter apparently written by the brother of Jesus - reads:

'What does it profit, my brothers, if a man says he has faith but has not works? .. So faith, by itself, if it has no works, is dead'. (James 2: 14, 17)
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#126210 - 05/31/06 06:24 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
this always bothered me too - if Jesus has a brother, James, how can one brother be mortal and the other a God? Talk about your sibling rivalry.

I can just see them growing up. Mary says to james, "Why can't you be like your brother and make us wine out of the water?" We're so hungry, can't you make more fishes like your brother Jesus?
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Religion flies you into buildings

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#126211 - 05/31/06 06:35 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
Read James Tabor: The Jesus Dynasty. I really recommend it because of the alternative, but learned, view of the New Testament that it presents.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#126212 - 05/31/06 06:41 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
SpookyMark Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 03/27/05
Posts: 1350
Loc: new zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:

Spooky thanks for the creed. I like mine better.

I could TOLLERATE yours with yours with some changes.

Believer. I'm not asking you to like my version.
you're entitled to like yours better.

Tolerate it, dont tolerate it, change it, dont change it, makes no difference to me.

Go with your God Believer, and be happy.
_________________________
"When will my wife understand that the "silent treatment" isnt actually a punishment?"

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#126213 - 05/31/06 07:49 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
Quote:
Originally posted by PDM:
The letter of James - ie a letter apparently written by the brother of Jesus - reads:

[b]'What does it profit, my brothers, if a man says he has faith but has not works? .. So faith, by itself, if it has no works, is dead'. (James 2: 14, 17)
[/b]
Ahh good one PDM. Jesus also said that you will know His followers by their fruit. So we've come to a bit of a problem right? Because if you don't know Jesus you can't get to heaven even if you do good, but if you know Jesus and don't do good then you also can't get to heaven.

Here's the basic answer to that. Many of you know of me correct? You've read what I believe, you've seen my responses to posts, but do you know me? I'd be safe in saying that except for 3 of you most don't even know my name. Most of you couldn't pick me out of a lineup if you had to.

It's the same with Jesus. Jesus himself says "That there will be many who come and say Lord Lord, and he will tell them depart from me I never knew you." Why? Because there are many people out there who claim to follow Christ, but do not. There are many who come in his name, but do things that just cannot be of God.

What James is talking about here is simple. Those who follow Christ will have evidence in their works. They will bear fruit because their actions will reflect those of Christ.

MBas;

James was Christ's brother the same as my wife's first son is a brother to my and my wife's daughters. James was not a follower of his 1/2 brother Jesus until after the ressurection. And yes he did have alot to live up to.
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God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#126214 - 05/31/06 08:37 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
.... James was not a follower of his 1/2 brother Jesus until after the ressurection....
What makes you think that?
a number of authors have suggested that some of the disciples were Jesus's own brothers.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#126215 - 05/31/06 08:45 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
Quote:
Originally posted by PDM:
[b]The letter of James - ie a letter apparently written by the brother of Jesus - reads:

[b]'What does it profit, my brothers, if a man says he has faith but has not works? .. So faith, by itself, if it has no works, is dead'. (James 2: 14, 17) [/b]
...
What James is talking about here is simple. Those who follow Christ will have evidence in their works. They will bear fruit because their actions will reflect those of Christ.

... [/b]
Well, I think that 'good Christian people' should be doing good deeds. I'm not convinced that that is always the case, though.

However, I think what James is saying is quite clear: If you have faith, but you are not a decent person, who does good, then simply having that faith is useless to you.

This goes against those who say that all you need is faith, and that being 'good' is not the issue.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#126216 - 05/31/06 09:03 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
Quote:
Originally posted by PDM:
What makes you think that?
a number of authors have suggested that some of the disciples were Jesus's own brothers.
The number of James' in the N.T. is confusing. There are at least 3 different men. Two were apostles and the third is the Lord's brother. Matthew 10:2-4 gives the names of the apostles. Notice that the 1st James is the brother of John, sons of Zebedee. The second James is identified as the son of Alphaeus. In Mark 15:40 he is designated "the Less", probably because he was younger that the son of Zebedee.

Out of the 3 James' mentioned only two were apostles when Christ was alive. The writer of James was not one of the 3.
_________________________
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#126217 - 05/31/06 09:08 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
Believer Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
This has alot more info on the subject.

http://www.harvardhouse.com/james.htm
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.

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#126218 - 05/31/06 09:44 PM Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
Do you not think that, since Mary was said to be 'ever virgin' by the RC Church, and since the RC Church was the Christian Church for several centuries - and a very powerful and influential church at that - they would have seen to it that Jesus's brothers were omitted, or sidelined, as often as possible in Bible translations or when choosing canon?

'55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?'
Matthew 13:55 (New International Version)

The names of Jesus's brothers are similar to the names of the apostles. Now this could be coincidence - or it could be sleight of hand, I think.

If James had not even been a disciple, would he really have led the Jerusalem Church - even above Peter?

'In the gospel of Thomas, when disciples ask Jesus who will lead them after he is gone, Jesus answers: "You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." '
http://www.stjohns.presbychurch.net/Sermons/james.htm


Matthew 10. New International Version:

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus [was he also known as Judas? ~ as given below?]; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him


Luke 6. King James Version:

'13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16And Judas the brother of James [it says: 'Judas son of James' in NIV], and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. '


But this is getting off topic and we already have a relevant thread:

Topic: Were the disciples Jesus's brothers?
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000276#000000
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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