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#125949 - 05/22/06 03:37 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Regular
Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 62
Loc: WA state, USA
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Originally posted by Believer: Originally posted by Spooky Mulder - aka - Mark C: [b] Are Satan and God perhaps siblings, and it's their mother or father that tells them which souls they're allowed to play with? Wow that is a spooky concept. How do I answer that? Um NO. Satan is a created being, a fallen angel, but created by God. [/b]I find it so amusing how people can SPECULATE (yes, it's still ONLY a guess) with such firm conviction!! God (good) and Satan (evil)as siblings? Here's a concept that's been offered before in ancient religions (Norse, Greek, Aztec) to explain the "duality of man" so to speak. It doesn't really seem unusual or bizarre, except to those who are too focussed on one sole idea. "Answers" are never available here. Only responses. Believer, can you at least admit that there is just as much of a chance that God and Satan are siblings as the more popular Christian belief?
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"Be great in act, as you have been in thought"
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#125950 - 05/22/06 04:11 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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No I can't. I suppose if I didn't believe that the Bible was God's word to us, and if I believed it was a flawed document written by flawed humans, then yes. But I don't.
If I'm going to take God's word as truth then I can't believe that Satan & God are siblings, cousins or any other family relation. So from my point of view it's a fact. We can go round and round on this, and you can ask how I know, and I can share several experiences that have strengthened my faith over the years, but I will never convince you.
The only one who can convince you that God exists is God. The only one, who can give you faith in his word is God. So while you find it amusing that I have enough faith in something to speak matter of factly about it, I find it sad that you lack faith in a God that loves you and died for you.
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God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#125951 - 05/22/06 04:43 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Tin Star Soulmate
Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
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Well put Believer. But "Don't Cry For Me Argentina." I may not be a believer, and I certainly don't accept the Christian way, but I feel as strongly about my lack of definite belief as you do about your belief. As for the Bible itself being by humans, I'll point to you to this website I discovered with those types of questions, written by a minister: http://www.kencollins.com/bible-00.htm Especially the parts about translations. The argument of belief vs. proof can never be solved. As much as I believe the light will light when I flip the switch, I can only believe that there are electrons flowing through the wires. I can't see them without an electron microscope. The inherent contradiction in Christianity is stated in your last statement. "a God that loves you and died for you." God sent his son to die, not God itself. But they are one and the same, but maybe not, since one is the father and one is the son, but if God is dead, then who is minding the store, but jesus didn't die, he was resurrected, so he's still alive, which means he didn't die for me on the cross after all. Forgive my impertinence, but it's no wonder you have to believe - it's impossible to sort out!
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Science flies you to the moon Religion flies you into buildings
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#125952 - 05/22/06 05:51 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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Actually no it's not impossible to sort out. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God incarnate, "in carne(latin for meat or flesh)" or "in flesh" So while Christ was all man he was also all God.
As for Jesus being resurrected that is correct. For Jesus to have simply died would have been useless, as his resurrection is what conquered death. So while Jesus(God) is living his actions of being beaten and dying on a cross were done in love for humanity.
Now as to the trinity. Father=Son=Holy Spirit how is this possible? Think H2O. Water? Well not really. Water is but a state of H2O the others being vapor and ice. All three are states of the exact same compound, but all three have distinguished properties. God is God in all three states, and in essence never changes.
So when I state that God died for your sins, yes God, in the form of Jesus, had to endure physical torture, in addition to death on a cross. The good news isn't his death but the fact that he was able to come back and put and end to "spiritual" death.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#125953 - 05/22/06 06:07 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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Oh and just because something is written by a minister or an achedemic, or scientist does not make it true. There have always been, and will always be people who spread lies about Jesus, but claim to come from Jesus.
Consider the Gnostic gospels written several hundred years after Christ, or the inquisition, or the Crusades, or the sale of indulgences. These are all examples of man made intepretations or perversions of God's truth.
The Old Testament belongs to the Jews, and considering you Jewish herritage, should be accepted by you as a Jewish person. The New Testament belongs to all mankind, and is God's message of redemption to Jews and Gentile alike. If you question even your own Jewish faith then you will probably never accept Christianity. The problem with Judaism is the same with Christianity in the sense that many feel they are born into this religion, and therefore are "covered" by their belief.
Unfortunatly, for alot of people, the only way to be born into Christianity is to be born again. Your relationship with God cannot be passed on by your parents, yet ask a large percent of our population what religion they are and they will start by saying well my dad was.. and my mom was.. but we went to a .. church...
The question should never be what religion are you or where do you go to church but rather what is your relationship with your savior like?
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#125954 - 05/22/06 06:42 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Regular
Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 62
Loc: WA state, USA
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To accept one, and only one, source of information as true (the Bible), and to discount every single other thought or idea that can't be backed up by that one source, is tunnel-vision. I just can't do it. I still hold on to Christian concepts because I was brought up in and around them, but I just can't close my eyes to things that don't make sense. I believe there can be a combination of the two. I believe God doesn't merely want us to learn (an obey). I believe he wants us to THINK!
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"Be great in act, as you have been in thought"
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#125955 - 05/22/06 07:11 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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Oh I agree. I believe he does want us to think. That much is evident by the fact that he gave us a choice. I don't discount other beliefs, but I do compare them.
For instance, I don't believe in re-incarnation because it says in the Bible that death is appointed unto man one time, and then the judgement. So if we only die once we don't come back. Do I disagree with the belief that we should strive to be a better person? No but I disagree with the reason why.
I try not to close my eyes to things that don't make sense, and I never stop questioning, but feel that I should never discount what God has said in his word simply because I don't understand it.
I don't fully understand how people can shrink a circuit board onto a silicone chip, surround it with ceramic and call it an Intel, but that doesn't stop me from programming computers. In other words just because I don't understand how the processor was created, doesn't mean I lose faith that it's there, and it certainly doesn't mean that I stop learning how to program against it.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#125956 - 05/22/06 08:19 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Regular
Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 62
Loc: WA state, USA
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Originally posted by Believer:
I try not to close my eyes to things that don't make sense, and I never stop questioning, but feel that I should never discount what God has said in his word simply because I don't understand it.
So how do you think God feels about the person who accepts much of what the Bible stands for, but does not interpret certain things to have literal meaning? Do you understand the use of the metaphor to illustrate an idea (not necessarily a literal event)? What if, for example a person believes that the theory of evolution makes more sense than the Adam and Eve concept? Or the concept of fitting two of every creature on the planet inside a large boat? Or the concept of a man surviving inside a great fish for days. If one challenges these ideas as not probable, does that make a person unfaithful in God's eyes? Why would it?? Why would God care which 4000-year-old stories we choose to believe every literal word of, as long as the message is clear.
_________________________
"Be great in act, as you have been in thought"
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#125957 - 05/22/06 08:59 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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Hate to say it but I don't know. I do know that as I have grown in my faith, alot of what I originally believed has become foolish in my eyes. I also know that taking the first step in accepting God is usually the hardest.
I grew up in church, I grew up with good Christian parents who taught me about God, and even after I was saved I still believed in evolution. It wasn't until a few years ago that I started researching creation, evolution and the different theories of how we got here, that I decided that creation was the true way.
My beliefs have changed quite a bit as I've matured in my walk with God. But then again when I was a child I thought as a child. I don't think God intends for us to know everything or understand everything going in, but I do know that if you seek him he will reveal himself to you.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#125958 - 05/22/06 09:08 PM
Re: Sin, Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness, Redemption, Salvation, etc.
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22732
Loc: UK
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Originally posted by Believer: ...There have been instances where people have watched neighbor's kids getting abused, and have not made the phone call to stop the abuse. There have been cases where people have watched women getting raped, and did not assist the victim by stopping the rape. By making a choice not to act they choose to allow the crime(sin, evil) to happen.... God is ever-present, all-seeing, and has ultimate power, apparently. He lets these things happen. But if a mere human fails to stop them happening, he or she can't go to God's heaven. Doesn't make sense to me!
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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