So true, so true. And I think this is a big mistake that most Christians make. A lot of Christians get into that mindset that the Pharisees had. If you don't follow OUR rules, you will never be allowed to go into His temple. How could a person come to know God & hear about Him & worship Him if they weren't even allowed to enter His "holy" temple where God was being discussed & His presence was believed to be indwelt there?

One of the things about Jesus was that He came to reveal who God truly was to everyone. He didn't put barriers on who was allowed to hear about God. He told the Jews around Him that God didn't require any special offerings or special rules to follow to truly know Him & worship Him. Jesus told everyone to come to know God FIRST & then the rest will follow. It's evident in His teaching of the first commandment -- Love God w/all your heart, soul & mind. When you do that first, all the rest falls into place. God wants everyone to come as they are. Nothing special in it. So simple yet people make it so complicated.

Jesus told the Jews around Him that not one person is perfect. Not one person on earth obeys the "laws" 100%. He told them that the ancestors of old LOVED God first & foremost. Were they perfect? A resounding big NO, ESPECIALLY David. But David also knew that God loved Him. David also knew that God was David's authority. God was the person who David bowed down to & worshipped. His FAITH that God was his superior, that he couldn't do anything in his life w/o God was what saved him & all the others before him. David, Abraham, Moses, all of them had FAITH that God was their saving grace. That God was merciful & graceful. THey knew His wrath as well but they also knew that God was a saving God. That He was full of mercy & grace.

Jesus, every time He interacted w/people, the most popular thing He said to them was, "Go in peace. Your FAITH has healed you, saved you, etc." What was that faith? The faith that God saves. That they weren't too proud to bow down & say, "I'm yours, God."

The Pharisees had it backwards. They had a list of rules. These rules were given to them by God & they were told to obey them. That if they loved God, they would obey all of those commandments. Somehow the Pharisees lost the message somewhere. They began to turn it around. They said if you're not following the rules then you can't know God. You can't stand in His presence. Jesus turned it back to what God intended in the first place. He said come to know God FIRST & then the rules will follow. This is what God did from the beginning. He revealed HImself to the Israelites FIRST & THEN gave them commands to live w/each other & to interact w/each other. To SHOW that they followed Him.

It's not supposed to be like that & I think people change it INTO that. I think what Jesus was trying to tell us was that we are all different. But no matter how different we all are, we all come from the same source -- God, which means we're all in this together & we're all brothers & sisters. I think where the "believe in Jesus or you're damned" comes in is that if you don't believe that Jesus was sent by God or He was truly His Son, you condemn yourself b/c seeing Jesus & knowing Jesus is actually knowing God Himself. He revealed Himself THROUGH Jesus by the things Jesus said & did. Jesus was sent here to be a ransom. To shine a light toward God. If you look through that light, you find God, the Father.

Well said as usual MrsJF.

From PDM:

***It's strange how we are so similar in these matters but have come to different conclusions.***

I find it a beautiful thing when people with differing conclusions or opinions can still share them openly and honestly with each other. There's something miraculous in THAT!!!!

I don't know David Jenkins, but I think that if clergy were honest, there would be much more doubt or perhpas questioning about some of the details of the faith than they let on. I'm glad that was such a liberating experience for you.

****However, I can empathise with this to a degree:

' ..there is something more (I shared some of this in the supernatural experiences thread) that has led me to believe in something beyond myself, something that I cannot fully explain, but which I know is there. Intuitions, urgings, apparitions of sorts; unsettled feelings. Most of these things have all proved out in short order to have something to do with what was happening at the time or what would shortly occur.

'I realize that's not the same thing as God per se, but I think it's all part of the same generally invisible-to-the-eye mysterious spiritual fabric that swaddles my life. [Catlady]

I can't 'know' for sure, but I can 'feel' that I know.

I said before that I was 'seeking', not 'searching'.

However, I felt that I was, indeed, searching, for a long time. I had a feeling that there was something that was there, but just beyond my reach (like the feeling of something you want to say being 'on the tip of your tongue' but you can't remember it.) Strangely enough, that feeling, which I'd had for years, disappeared when I read 'The Celestine Prophecy'. ***

I like the way you put that...the on the tip of your tongue feeling...just out of reach. My experience with the world of spirit is that it is often elusive...and definitely hard to describe! Witness all our discussions -- all trying to describe either what we sense -- or don't sense -- in the world beyond what our five senses.

[quote]Originally posted by Catlady: [b]...I don't know David Jenkins, but I think that if clergy were honest, there would be much more doubt or perhaps questioning about some of the details of the faith than they let on. ... [/b][/quote][i]'A 2002 survey found that one third of Church of England clergy doubt or don’t believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus . ... A former Bishop of Durham, David Jenkins, caused a huge row in the Anglican Church in the 1980s when he expressed doubts over both the resurrection and the virgin birth. ..'[/i] From: 'Is resurrection the acid test?' 'Can you call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in the resurrection?' http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/resurrection.html

[quote]'A 2002 survey found that one third of Church of England clergy doubt or don’t believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus . ...'[/quote] We have a thread on the generally secular nature of British society. And the USA is considered to be a place where a large percentage of the population are believers. Is this connected to a difference in mindset between most Americans and most British, I wonder??

hi--i am not quite sure what the term "mindset" defines. do we define our own "mindset" and then go about it? isn't one great advantage our species has over next flexibility to adapt to various environments and settings? having a mind set in it's habitual ways seems detrimental to survival. some old joke comes to mind--"there's a good way, there's a bad way, and there's the army way." all kidding aside, would the military be considered a "mindset" or a remnant of one?--nicolo

Well, actually, we do have some threads about the meanings of words ~ because different people may understand them in different ways.

Mindset is a fairly new word to me, but how else do you describe what is going on in different people's minds to make them respond to the same things in totally different ways?

Why, for example ~ and I think that this is how this conversation began ~ is Believer absolutely convinced by all he believes and yet I am exteremely doubtful about those things?

Why does it seem ludicrous to some that we should share our ancestors with the apes, while to others it seems ludicrous that 'we' should have been moulded from clay by a superman in the sky?

And, to ghet back to my last question,. why does it at least appear that Americans are more likely to believe in the Bible and all that goes with it than are the English?
We actually have a thread on this?

A secular nation
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=190833&page=0&fpart=1

Is there a 'mindset' related to this?
If there is where and why do they differ from person to person ~ and from nation to nation??

hi PDM--"Mindset is a fairly new word to me, but how else do you describe what is going on in different people's minds to make them respond to the same things in totally different ways?"

Good question, but i am not convinced that a specific "mindset" is other than the individual's freewill to choose based on their own experience. it seems like a rehash of the question about "beliefs".
i respond to life differently than others yet i think my method is the same. i use the criteria of my own values,experiences and knowledge to guide my actions toward my goal. my responses to life are not set, other than to maintain physical existence--food, clothing, shelter--a basic set the the human mind is occupied with. my beliefs are not set, they expand with growth. how i believed 10,20,30 years ago is not the same as i believe now yet i am still me. i have the same mind.
yes mindset is a new word for me also, yet i don't see it describing anything new--it seems to be used to describe "presumption" rather than anything solid.

"Why does it seem ludicrous to some that we should share our ancestors with the apes, while to others it seems ludicrous that 'we' should have been moulded from clay by a superman in the sky?"--PDM

neither seems ludicrous to me. in context they are congruent and compatible and offer a wider vision than either idea alone.

"And, to ghet back to my last question,. why does it at least appear that Americans are more likely to believe in the Bible and all that goes with it than are the English?"--PDM

the last question goes back to the first, about "definitions". perhaps americans and english understand belief differently. it is one thing to believe and another to understand. belief and understanding are not (or shouldn't be) "set" or else we wouldn't progress and grow. a mindset cuts one off from reality, perhaps it is the result of a runaway ego--the self preservation of an ego that feels threatened by it's own ignorance or uncertainty.--nicolo

Did you read the comment that sparked the thread ~ all that time ago?
This is how this topic began:

hi--i don't believe mindset as such exists a priori intellect. that's like saying someone is born good or evil, to me that's not validated. is that what mindset means?--nicolo