http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/u...&p=5#000066

It is obvious to me, when reading some posts, that certain 'believers' are mystified and frustrated by agnostics, atheists, free-thinkers and the like.

Meanwhile, the agnostics are mystified and frustrated by the unquestioning beliefs and ideas of the Christian fundamentalists and Bible literalists, etc.

I don't have a problem with people having beliefs, but I cannot understand how they can call their opinions and beliefs 'facts'. Where does this much faith come from?

I accept that some religious beliefs may be true and others may not. I know that there are strange and inexplicable happenings in the world. I keep an open mind, but I don't know the answers. I don't have the explanations, and I cannot see how anyone else can think that they do.

it is very fascinating isn't it.

We hear about so many people experiencing religious epiphanies so that they suddenly believe.

We hear less about people having the reverse, but it does happen too.

I'd like to hear about those epiphanies on both sides. To those who 'became' religious believers, what was the defining moment when you "knew" that your faith was true?

And to the converted non-believers, what prompted you to abandon your long held beliefs?

Speaking from the perspective of someone who really didn't "become" a believer, I've always been, I don't know if I've had a defining "aha" moment really. I was baptized as an infant & then when I was confirmed, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. There are certain moments when reading the Bible that I had "aha" moments of clarity on things I was reading b/c I had prayed first & asked God to give me insight to what I was reading. So there were times when I would get a better understanding of what I was reading & now as an adult, I am in a Bible study that goes over when the documents were written, from what perspective they were written so I can understand the Israelites viewpoint & the need for a Savior of mankind.

For a person who's had God in their lives since the day they were born, I have gotten confirmation just from my experiences as a person in my life that He exists & from reading the history of the Israelite people comparing to humanity today, I don't see much difference in our behaviors, so the need for a Savior makes sense to me.

At the risk of being attacked (but please don't, I'm just speaking honestly) - I feel like it is brainwashing. I suspect one needs a susceptible mind (which may be a genetic predisposition). Then all it takes is being taught these things as truth at an early age. The combination of a susceptible mind plus very early instillation of these beliefs - > leads to Blind Faith.

Even if one is not taught the specific religious doctrines he/she ultimately chooses to follow, just the concept that life is here for a greater good or purpose, or that a God or supernatural power exists beyond our understanding, when taught at a very early age when the brain is still developing - is enough in my opinion to change the hardwiring of the brain forever.

Incidentally, when I was a child - I was not taught one way or the other. My parents did not believe much, but never tried to persuade me. They always encouraged me to find my own way on these matters. Perhaps it is in my genes not to believe, since my parents were agnostic hedging toward atheist. Or perhaps it was because they never pushed the concept of God or Greater Purpose at an early age. But whenever I hear of "Greater Purpose" all I can think is "Manmade Construct"

So you NEVER had any other experience in your life other than being born into the cult.

Have you even looked at other cultures, other faiths from anything other than a "it must be wrong because it's different" perspective?

I agree with victor above - it's brainwashing, indoctrinating helpless children who don't have a chance or a right to question.

Yes I have looked at other cultures. I was also born Puerto-Rican & Indian. The way my mother was raised was to pray to saints, they had sceances, they also practiced black magic. Yet, she also experienced Christianity, went to an Episcopalian church. She made an informed decision based on her personal experiences w/God.

She raised us Christian, yes, however, there was a time, & I don't remember exactly when, but there was a time when I was getting confirmation that everything she had taught me about Jesus was true. I can't tell you the time b/c I don't remember. It was so long ago. But I have researched other religions & practices & they just do not line up w/what I know to be true in my HEART not b/c someone else told me it was that way.

i was baptized,went to sunday school then on to church..then decided it wasn't for me,regardless of what my family wanted i made my own choice at 16 and do not believe,life is just to precious and to short to waste on a belief system that just doesn't work in my head or my heart.

Ladybird and Victor That's cool. But I often wonder does your Non belieF only concern God ( as the bible portrays him) how do you stand on a concept of a superior power