Catlady wrote: [q]And yet....in my stint as an evangelical Christian, I was astounded to find that they didn't believe Roman Catholics (the religion I grew up in) were Christians. [/q] When I accepted the Lord, I started attending the RC church in NY. When others that were not RC met me they could not at first accept the fact that a RC was a Christian. I do admit that most in the RC church do not know the Lord, and this includes many of the clergy. However, I have come to know that it is t he same in other denominations. I have met many true followers of Jesus from many different denominations. Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s we banded together and began street meetings with the sole purpose of bringing the message out to the people. Our group was composed of believers from different denominations which included RC’s and at one point even a Bishop from the RC church joined us in the streets. He was invited by some of the lay leaders of his church and he did not know that most of the workers were from other denominations. One particular preacher was a protestant lady friend of ours. The Bishop was so taken by her preaching that he immediately invited her to preach at one of the RC churches under him. To their surprise they found out that she was not RC until after she finished preaching at their church. By then it did not matter to them. The mixture of workers from different denominations was a blessing because we were not working for a specific denomination, but strictly for the Lord. It also served as a lesson for many because they were able to see with their own eyes that there were true followers of Jesus in the different denominations. When I moved to the south, I encountered the same problem with many of the Christians down here. However, as time goes on I am seeing a change in many of them.

As I have mentioned before, the girls at my Sunday School were asked to pray for me because I was the daughter of a heathen and an idolatress.

I was astounded - I didn't realise, at first, that they were referring to me. I felt sorry for this poor girl.

The heathen was my late father ~ an agnostic.

The idolatress was my mother ~ a Roman Catholic.

From Fish:
Fish, I am assuming you are referring to animosity from Protestants towards Roman Catholics. If there is animosity between the different branches of Christianity, just try to imagine the animostiy directed towards those of us outside the realm of Christianity.

A Christian should never feel hate, or animosity towards anyone. Believe it or not I pray for you all every day. I also pray that God gives me patience, and the right words to say. I get upset sometimes but that doesn't make me care less for any of you.

Victor wrote:
"If there is animosity between the different branches of Christianity, just try to imagine the animostiy directed towards those of us outside the realm of Christianity"

These feelings are not just due to religious beliefs, they extend to other things also. People tend to discriminate because of color, language, where you're from etc. We tend to group by what we have in common and those that do not have commonality with us, we push away. God does not want us to be like that. One of the best illustrations that Jesus left us is the one of the Jew and the Samaritan.

Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. "Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. "But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. "On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.' "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?" And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."
(Luk 10:30-37)

Samaritans and Jews did not get along and they were enemies. If we are to show love, mercy and compassion to our enemies, how much more towards those that are not our enemies. What Deborah wrote above about that WBC group in Kansas is deplorable. Whether they are Christians or not I cannot judge, but God will deal with them. Hate is not acceptable under any condition. There is no excuse for the hate that is spewed on their website

[quote]Originally posted by PDM: [b] As I have mentioned before, the girls at my Sunday School were asked to pray for me because I was the daughter of a heathen and an idolatress. I was astounded - I didn't realise, at first, that they were referring to me. I felt sorry for this poor girl. The heathen was my late father ~ an agnostic. The idolatress was my mother ~ a Roman Catholic. [/b][/quote]PDM, I am sorry for the actions other Christians towards you. As I have mentioned before, we sometimes fail to follow the teachings of Jesus. I can only imagine that these things happen because we are not perfect and make a lot of mistakes. A mistake we are always committing is that we take our eyes off our Lord on focus on the issues with our own views and not His. I pray for all of you on this page, not because I consider myself better than you, for I am not, but because I want all of you to have good health, good fortune, joy, happiness, and I want you personally experience God’s love for you and also for you to develop a personal relationship with Him. I want you to finally find what your searching for and fill the void in your life. I truly want the best for you.

Victor

***But around these parts (Think Buckle of Bible Belt) - I find that Christianity is more like rooting for your favorite football team - and everybody else is the much despised rival.***

Ha! Thanks for saying that! I say Ha! because you put into words something I have felt for a long time but could never put my finger on....it's kind of a popularity, high-school football team kind of attitude. That's a big turn off to me, but it does precisely describe a kind of objectionable Christianity. It's that us-them thing again, which i think is out of place in any sort of evolved spirituality.

I recently got a copy of the Message version of the Bible which is a sort of "street-language" translation that makes it easier to read as a story. The language isn't high-falutin' (I have no idea how to properly spell that) but it's fresh, down-to-earth. If you ever get the time or inclination to explore the Bible again, that might be an interesting version to read.

I do think accepting Christ as saviour is basic to Christianity; and it's hard to get away from that. But even in the gospels, things vary from Jesus saying to go out and tell people about the good news, to those who don't believe in Jesus is damned.

I think the latter is harsh, and interpret it to mean that something good and life-giving and hopeful that could help in people's lives is being offered and the "damning" comes in saying "I don't want it, I'm fine as I am, I don't need to change" not the other interpretation that people who don't accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour are doomed and damned to hell for all eternity. (BTW, I'm not saying you're damned!!! I'm just trying to explain my interpretation of a difficult bit of scripture).

I recognize, Christian or not, that I do (or think) some very unhelpful things to myself and those around me that I do need to change. I am grateful for insights and avenues that help me make this change. For me, Jesus is one of those. But this is a realization I have come to in my own life ABOUT my own life and people shoving their opinions of me and my life down my throat didn't make me willing to change. It was more me realizing ways I was running my life weren't working very well and looking for ways to turn them around. Like in the saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears."

But to be totally honest, too, I have from a very young age, found a relationship with God as demonstrated by Jesus attractive and appealing, so I've been open to it for most of my life. I do think this relationship has made the difference between me going down a destructive road and walking a rocky road to a better path when I encountered some traumatic times in my life.

But I'm getting a little too wordy here, so I'll stop now!

I would like to try to put some thoughts into words and hope that they make sense.

I have been a Christian.
I did consider myself, at one time, to be Roman Catholic, but I don't think I ever really was ~ it was just what I had been Christened.

I used to go to Church, church group, Sunday School - 3 times per week (Baptist Church and later Gospel Hall ~ occasionally RC)

I started to have doubts as I entered my teens. That's a difficult age, anyway, and I was confused and frightened by my thoughts.

Anyway, with an RC mother and an agnostic father I always had food for thought.

I spent a lot of time in my teens discussing God, the Bible, space, eternity, etc, etc

I married in a Church of England, but would have been happy to marry in a castle, and, later, I thought and thought about whether my children should be christened. I gave it much consideration and, eventually, they were.

I consider myself to be an agnostic and a seeker.
Agnostic because when it comes to the paranormal and the supernatural I don't know.
I do feel a sense of 'spirituality' though.

I am a seeker because that's how my brain works - I just love to absorb ideas and knowledge. Sometimes the ideas are really way out; but even if I'm willing to consider some very unorthodox views, I retain my historian's training and never really believe anything unless there is very, very good evidence.

That's why I am an agnostic and a seeker.

My Anglican priest friend said he considered me to be agnostic, but spiritual and a seeker. That felt OK to me.

I sometimes get the impression that some of the Christians on the board think that I am searching for something to make my life complete. But I'm not. I'm very content with my life. I feel much happier as an agnostic than I did as a Christian with doubts.

I'm seeking, not searching.

And when I disagree with Christian ideas, it is because they do not make sense to me or because I don't feel that there is reliable evidence for them. It is not because I have anything against Christians.

As an agnostic, I don't know what's correct, but the Christians could be right. But then, so could any other religious or non-religious group.

I find the words of most people on the board reflect really nice personalities, so I don't have anything against them as individuals ~ I just may not see the world as they do.

I feel that I try to send out positive loving energy. It could be interpreted as prayer and I think it's really nice that anyone should wish to pray for me.

In a crisis, I admit, I pray ~ to God; to the universe; to my deceased loved-ones. I'm human, after all and God may well be there, but 'he' may not be as understood by Christianity.

Thank you for that beautiful and honest post, PDM.

BTW, I had the same parents as you -- agnostic dad and RC mom! My mom taught me a lot about spirituality (in a pretty open-minded way, since she is open to aliens, elves, angels, etc.) and my dad taught me how to debate (I don't think this was intentional, but it was a strong lesson all the same). So, it dawns on me that my participation on this board is sort of tribute to both of them!!!

I like to have evidence, too (reporter's training). But sometimes I can't get what I need to satisfy me. When I went through my divorce, I wracked my brain (and the brains of many friends, believe me ) to figure out how my marriage could fall apart. We followed the "formula," we did things "right", we traveled, we went to church, -why, why, why??? I kept asking myself over and over (and my ex and I explored these questions somewhat in the relatively safe medium of email. Part of his answer? That this was "God's path" for him -- to start dating a female elder in our church. Uh, I thought it might have been that "other guy's" plan -- the one with the pitchfork ).

Anyway, a very wise woman finally told me that some things you just aren't going to know the answer to. I have found other things like that in my life too -- why are some people addicted and others not? Why is one sibling an achiever and one a slacker? I had a choice to continue beating my head against the wall, or accept that there are some things that I am not going to know and go on with my life.

I'm not saying this to convince you of anything or to suggest anything is missing in your life or to explode the need to have evidence. I'm just sharing that in my life, I've found that sometimes I just CAN'T know the answers in a way that will satisfy me fully.

There's a saying in the Bible (I think Paul...in Hebrews 11 -- a whole chapter just on faith)that faith is the evidence of things not seen. In MY experience, I have found that to be so.

It is true that few of us (any of us?) come to a faith system or system of disbelief or questioning belief without a culture around us. We are influenced by our family, friends, nation, times we live in, life experiences. I know that's part of what influenced me to have the belief system I do. I would be lying if I said it wasn't. But there is something more (I shared some of this in the supernatural experiences thread) that has led me to believe in something beyond myself, something that I cannot fully explain, but which I know is there. Intuitions, urgings, apparitions of sorts; unsettled feelings. Most of these things have all proved out in short order to have something to do with what was happening at the time or what would shortly occur.

I realize that's not the same thing as God per se, but I think it's all part of the same generally invisible-to-the-eye mysterious spiritual fabric that swaddles my life. I think a faith in something I called God came first, and then these experiences and both the faith and the experiences supported each other. They've built on each other and brought me to where I am today. There's more to it than that, but I don't want to make your or anyone else's eyes glaze over reading an interminably long post from me, so I'll stop now.

Thanks, though, for all your great work on this board and to everyone else, too....for the really thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion. It's all good!

It's strange how we are so similar in these matters but have come to different conclusions.

However, I can empathise with this to a degree:


' ..there is something more (I shared some of this in the supernatural experiences thread) that has led me to believe in something beyond myself, something that I cannot fully explain, but which I know is there. Intuitions, urgings, apparitions of sorts; unsettled feelings. Most of these things have all proved out in short order to have something to do with what was happening at the time or what would shortly occur.

'I realize that's not the same thing as God per se, but I think it's all part of the same generally invisible-to-the-eye mysterious spiritual fabric that swaddles my life. [Catlady]

I can't 'know' for sure, but I can 'feel' that I know.


I said before that I was 'seeking', not 'searching'.

However, I felt that I was, indeed, searching, for a long time. I had a feeling that there was something that was there, but just beyond my reach (like the feeling of something you want to say being 'on the tip of your tongue' but you can't remember it.) Strangely enough, that feeling, which I'd had for years, disappeared when I read 'The Celestine Prophecy'.

Some people dismiss it - and I have no idea whether it is any more 'right' than any other beliefs or theories or ideas, but reading it made me feel more 'complete'. I know that it was very popular at the time.

Also, the 'guilt' at my religious doubts disappeared, when I heard an interview with David Jenkins, then Bishop of Durham.

He said that he had doubts about the resurrection and the virgin birth.

I felt really liberated by this. If a bishop could have doubts, then surely it wasn't so wrong for me to have doubts too. I think he's great!