Does 'I think of God as being the organising force behind Nature' actually go with 'He is supernatural, since having created the laws of nature, He is above nature.'?

I don't think so. One is an abstract impersonal 'force'; the other is a 'superbeing' with a personality.

No offense mbas but everyone at the time was, anti-woman. The Jews had a separate section of the temple beyond which the women were not even able to pass.

Believer, I'm still wondering about this?

That's sort of like saying that Superman could only be Superman all of the time, when we know darn well that he was also Clark Kent!

But neither 'Superman' nor 'Clark Kent' was an abstract impersonal force.

Ok I believe it's the book of Job that states that the clay is not greater than the sculpter who molds it.

Now God is neither abstract nor impersonal. God has given us the tools to come to Him, and be saved from our sins. God has also given us the ability to come closer to Him and develop a personal relationship with Him through His Holy Spirit.

I realize that God being outside or rather above nature is a difficult concept to grasp, but bear with me as I try to explain this concept. I tend to use programming analogies alot since it is what I do for a living, and in truth is a real world example of the creator/creation relationship.

If I were to design a program with certain abilities then my program would also have limitations which are not included within the given abilities. This program would never, and could never compare to me since I have given it the abilities and limitations that I built in to the design.

Having designed this program I am above it and can change aspects of it by simply writing them in to the design. In software we call these revisions, feature enhancements, patches, service packs...

You will notice them anytime you boot up Windows and have to wait for patches to come down. These patches provide two distinct purposes.

1. Fix know issues with certain versions of software.

2. Add enhancements as requested by user groups or individual users.

Windows as an Operating System is not above it's creators. It can only function within the parameters given to it by it's creators. By default it can open an internet browser, send email, establish a network connection...

These are features that were put in as Windows evolved over the years, but they were not evolutionary features in the sense that they created themselves. Someone had to created or design those features into it.

In the same way God has created this universe we inhabit. At the end of the creation God rested and said "It is done", meaning that creation as a whole was complete. We as humans could never comprehend this as our knowledge is constantly being built upon and added to as years pass. But God in His infinite wisdom was able to design a perfectly functioning ecosystem for us to live in.

Being the designer of Nature and all of it's laws He is above those laws and not subject to them. Being the creation and the result of those laws we are subject to them. We can never attain His status, nor can we ever truly not be subject to His laws.

I hope this explains this concept better.

Well, yes, Believer, that's why I was surprised that you said: 'I can agree to that' in response to Joe Bloggs when he stated: 'I think of God as being the organising force behind Nature. It's a bit of an abstract concept to put into words.'

I realise that you added a few other comments, but, all the same, do you really agree that God, as 'the organising force behind Nature' is 'a bit of an abstract concept.' (Or have I misunderstood Joe here? )

I agree that God is the organizing force behind what we call nature. Is it abstract? It might be to Joe, or rather the rest of what he believes may be abstract I don't know enough about him to guess.

So I'm correct in thinking, Believer, that you do not consider God to be 'an abstract concept'?

Do you accept that it is possible that God might be 'an abstract concept'?

No I don't believe God to be abstract I agree that Joe's idea of God may be abstract.