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#129554 - 06/22/06 05:46 PM
Re: praying for non-believers
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Best Friend
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 1257
Loc: FL
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Originally posted by mbas400:
And the bible as we know it wasn't canonized until well after 300 AD, after the Constantinian conversion, and the council of Nicea.
By then the church was state religion for what was left of the Roman Empire, and those political men had to decide what went in and what didn't, and how to edit those ancient texts.
Now we're getting WAY off topic. Yes we are off topic but here it goes. While the Bible was not canonized as we know it we do have other religious leaders prior to Nicea who have stated that there are only 4 count them 4 gospels. In addition we have copies of those ancient texts from various parts of the known world back then, that date back prior to Nicea. Are we to believe that Constantine was able to travel back in time and drop off documents in Qumran that date back prior to his reign as emperor? Or is the more logical solution that these documents remained unchanged? Here's an example of what I mean: p46 most of Paul's letters and Hebrews once dated c. 200 redated by Young Kyu Kim to c. 85 p52 fragment of John c. 110-125 p66 most of John c. 125-175 or 3rd century p45 four gospels and Acts usu. III but some date it II p32 most of Titus usu. III but some date it II p75 most of Luke and John c. 175-225 p13 part of Hebrews c. 200 p72 1 Pet, 2 Pet, Jude III p47 fragment of Revelation III The p# is some sort of classification for these documents that came from Qumran. As you can see most are older than 300AD making them pre-Nicea.
_________________________
God doesn't want you to be part of His Religion. He wants your heart.
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#129558 - 06/22/06 07:02 PM
Re: praying for non-believers
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Best Friend
Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 1866
Loc: Michigan
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posted by fish: Constantine legalized Christianity in 313 through the Edict of Milan. The edict did not declare Christianity the official religion but it stopped the persecution of the Christians and allowed them to worship their God openly. At that time Rome did not have an official religion. The council of Nicaea did not create the Bible or the divinity of Jesus. This was the first time the leaders of the believers were able to come together from all over the known world to discuss their believes without the threat of being killed. I would be to differ on a few of your points. The council of Nicea DID discuss the divinity of Jesus and in fact establish that is would be part of Church Doctrine. There was no single individual who spoke for the entire church; no one person had the authority to decide matters of belief and practice. Such matters could only be determined by councils at which all available bishops would debate and attempt to resolve their differences. The first such meeting was the Council of Nicea in Asia Minor (now Turkey). 318 bishops out of the approximately 1,800 Christian bishops then in existence attended. Most came from the eastern half of the Empire. 5 Bishops attempted to resolve a major uncertainty facing the early church: the relationship between Jesus and God. The church recognized the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) which described God in strictly monotheistic terms. But there were references in the Gospels (particularly John) which implied that Jesus was divine. Two conflicting theories about the deity of Jesus were argued at the time: Arius (250 - 336 CE) proposed that Jesus and God were very separate and different entities: Jesus was closer to God than any other human being, but he was born a man, had no prior existence, and was not a god. On the other hand, God has been in existence forever. Arius felt that any attempt to recognize the deity of Christ would blur the lines between Christianity and the Pagan religions. If Christianity recognized two separate gods, the Father and Jesus, it would become a polytheistic religion.
Athanasius (296 - 373 CE) argued that Jesus must be divine, because otherwise, he could not be the Savior. The atonement would not have been possible.
Both Arius and Athanasius had large, evenly matched followings among the bishops. Emotions ran high. The council, under intense pressure from Emperor Constantine, resolved its deadlock by a close vote in favor of Athanasius. The dissenting bishops were offered two options: to sign the settlement at Nicea or be exiled. The bishops produced the Nicene Creed, which declared that Jesus Christ was "of one substance with the Father."..... The divinity of Jesus continued to be a bone of contention for another 150 years and caused the rift between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, that resulted in 1035 or so with the Orthodox churches splitting from the Catholic Church.
_________________________
"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion." Abraham Lincoln
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