LisaShea Forum Logo

all ads on this forum support animal charities
Search

Forum Areas
Parakeets
General Parakeet Chat
Keet Stories and Photos
Parakeet Photo Gallery
Budgie Training
Health and Medical Issues
Parakeet Breeding
In Memory Of ...
Non-Budgie Pets and Animals
Non-Budgie Animal Photos
Off-Topic for Keet Owners
Games
Animal Rights
Bird / Animal Books

General Discussion
Books, TV, Movies
Da Vinci Code
Dreams
Japanese Culture
Life, Universe, Everything
Online Courses
Politics
Religious Research
Show Your Own Work
Work From Home / Writing

Budgie Photos
My violet female budgie
my cage
two blues
Sponsored Link
Support Our Friends
The Child Health Site
Page 2 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#133462 - 09/15/06 05:51 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
Carl Offline
Silver Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 5176
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
While I had promised myself that I would not soon get involved in the politics and/or religion section again, I find that I must speak.

There are many on this board that I admire and/or like - for different reasons.

But I am truly amazed at what I consider the even-handed and fair-minded thinking and reasoning of you, Somsuj.
_________________________
Marge is the love of my life.

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133463 - 09/15/06 06:37 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
somsuj Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 1402
Loc: England
Oh ! thanks Carl - the credit goes to my mom & dad.

Here is something : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349578.stm

Mohammed Mahdi Akef, Muslim Brotherhood : The remarks do not express correct understanding of Islam

While there are several muslims in the world who do not understand their religion and wrongly interprete "zihad" and others (so we are told), why not they concentrate on correcting misconceptions amongst themselves ?

What did the pope say ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5348456.stm

ON HOLY WAR :

I was reminded of all this recently, when I read... of part of the dialogue carried on .... by the erudite Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

...........

In the seventh conversation...the emperor ........ addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

............. "God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."

.................

The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application... Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today.

..........


I see anything hardly objectionable there.
_________________________
Believe in nothing unless it agrees with your own reason, knowledge & common sense
Be good, do good

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133464 - 09/15/06 07:38 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
Capt. Haddock Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 1334
Loc: France
Quote:
Originally posted by somsuj:
I see no reason why those need to be mentioned in this context and what exactly that mention would achieve.
I see no reson why the half "bare truth" that he mentioned needed to be mentioned and what exactly that would achieve except to further polarise and divide people.

Quote:
This kinds of myths are propagated to confuse us.

Re Middle age, which also is referred to as DArk Age : what dark age ? Dark age refers to the lack of history, not lack of knowledge.
Which civiliazation/empire kept the knowledge of the Greeks ? Byzantian Civilization/empire which survived until the 4th Crusade.
Where from the "Arabs" acquired the knowledge ?
1. After annexing Persia - they accessed the "Greek School" established by Khousroo with the help of Byzantian Scholars.
2. After annexing Alexandria - they accessed the famous Library of Alexandria
Both events are of 7th Century AD.

Tolerance ? Read the spread of Islam as it happened by Md bin Qasim to India in early 700s. The King of Sindh was vanquished and then what happened to the populace ?

"Middle Age" and history is not restricted to Europe and the Levant only - there are places like India where middle age was as bright as anything . . .
There is nothing mythical about it. The "dark" ages were referred to thus, because at least in the west, knowledge was suppressed and concealed by the leaders of the time.

Of course Islamic civilisation borrowed from others before them: what civilisation hasn't? The romans borrowed from the Greeks. The Greeks borrowed from the Egyptians. The Egyptians borrowed from the Sumerians and Babylonians and so forth, and we all got our gunpowder from the Chinese. Societies do not develop in a vacuum.

Medaeval scholars in Europe used to have to read the ancient Greek works of knowledge in Arabic because such works had been destroyed in Europe.

As for tolerance, I'm sorry they treated the Hindus badly. The Jews of Spain had it much better under the Moorish Muslims than they did under the Catholic kings and queens who followed them.

By the sounds of it, the spread of Christianity in South America was fairly similar to the spread of Islam in Sindh. I might suspect that,like in South America, the imperial expansion had more to do with gold and glory than it did with God, but God always makes such a convenient justification.

Quote:
While that is truth, this kind of alarmist response from that section to anything that might refer to the them in a slightly tangential way is hardly what the world needs right now too.
I agree, but then again the reaction was hardly unexpected or unforseeable. When you stick your hand down dark holes don't be surprised if it comes out dirty.

I don't see how accusing another religion's prophet of bringing nothing but "things evil and inhuman" could be interpreted as anything less than fighting words, and I can't think of any religious group that wouldn't be justifiably furious if the same were said about their prophet, patriarch or messiah.

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133465 - 09/15/06 08:06 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
mrskongcrete Offline
Companion

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 158
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:

More love from the Vatican! The leader of the Christian Church.
Uh......the leader of the Catholic Church.
_________________________
"What if you're wrong? What if there's more? What if there's hope you've never dreamed of hoping for?"-Nicole Nordman

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133466 - 09/15/06 08:11 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
Carl Offline
Silver Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 5176
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
Once while still in college, I preached at a church, where I had been invited to attend from a woman who called into the radio station I worked nights at. There were three messages that Sunday night. I preached on the topic, "What It Means To Pray In Jesus' Name." Following me was a young man who had a very bombastic style - no notes, no apparent plan, and certainly "speaking for God." In his message, I heard him use the term, "Jesus Only" several times.

Turns out that they believed that since God has no name, there is only one God - Jesus. My pastor said that probably I preached the only message I could "safely" and "amicably" have brought.

I like this part of the quote that Somsuj uses:

"God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."

.................

The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application... Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today.


It's too bad that he didn't use that part, and leave out the part about the sword altogether.

I agree with what I think Capt is saying in that he should have expected his remarks would be poorly received.
_________________________
Marge is the love of my life.

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133467 - 09/15/06 09:08 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
janimal Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 3307
Loc: bude , cornwall
it stands to reason that the pope is bright enough to know how the remarks would be received., and i think that was his intention. yet another wave of 'islam is such a violent and evil religion' has been seeded, and some people really should be intelligent enough not to tear all muslims with the same brush. its nothing more than redneckery.

if the muslims sound victimized and are oversensitive, that might just be because they are victimized and at the end of their tether. hands up anyone who fancies being a muslim in london right now. not me. and if there are many new mosques being built in the west, then it must be because there are more muslims. i have never had anyone try to convert me to it, and i have known many to turn to the faith under their own steam and by islams own merits. as long as they don't expect me to live by their rules, i don't have a problem with islams spread.
_________________________
It's All got to go!!!

BudeStrings Music Tuition

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133468 - 09/15/06 09:19 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
somsuj Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 1402
Loc: England
Whether this is a calculated move by Pope to get the desired response is debatable.

What is not debatable is if you reside in Saudi Arabia and do not live by Shariat rules, you are doomed . . .

Never try to eat anything in public during Ramadan . . .
_________________________
Believe in nothing unless it agrees with your own reason, knowledge & common sense
Be good, do good

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133469 - 09/15/06 10:15 PM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
last I heard Catholics were Christians too.

But since Christians can't seem to agree on that point anyway, it makes fighting the Muslims that much more palatable.

Let's unite the church by attacking another faith!

Remember, this is the pope who used be part of Hitler Youth. (although he apologized - which is good, as a Christian he's forgiven by Jesus.)

redneckery - good choice of words.
_________________________
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133470 - 09/16/06 12:17 AM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
janimal Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 3307
Loc: bude , cornwall
oh, great - so because of the policies of a few fundamentalist governments you write off the faith of hundreds of millions of people eventhough within islam there is as broad a spectrum of interpretation as you would find in any religion? right on, som. not. i wonder - do you think your attitude might be coloured by your hindhu background - i mean, hindus and muslims weren't exactly hugging and kissing during the emergency. as i understand the cries on one side were, at one time,'death to all hindus' on one side, and 'death to all muslims' on the other. or did attenborough get that wrong in the ghandi movie?

yep, he was in the hitler youth, and he does come from the all original heartland of the nazis. bavaria is to them is what - say - mississippi is to the kkk.

its not a german clergy, buthere's a nice picture i scanned out of the christy moore songbook:



happy thoghts. wink
_________________________
It's All got to go!!!

BudeStrings Music Tuition

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
#133471 - 09/16/06 07:13 AM Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14
somsuj Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 1402
Loc: England
Quote:
Originally posted by janimal:
oh, great - so because of the policies of a few fundamentalist governments you write off the faith of hundreds of millions of people eventhough within islam there is as broad a spectrum of interpretation as you would find in any religion? right on, som. not.
No jani, get this very clear from me - I do not blame them because of few fundamentalist governemnet, I do not blame them for few jihdis like Osama-bin-laden, I do not blame them for a few suicide bombers like Md Ata, I do not blame them fr the atrocities caused by comquerors like Tamerlane in the name of Islam.

But I do blame them for their silence to all these. I do blame them for not speaking up against those fundamentalist governments, jihadis and suicide bombers, While they are very prompt to protest any incidences like this.
There silence, I can only interprete as implicit support.

please try and understand my stand.

you may rememeber the result of a poll conducted by ITV & Times at the anniversary of 7/7 this year ? You shall find 7% of British Muslims actually supporting those attacks. 'nuff said.

Quote:
Originally posted by janimal:
i wonder - do you think your attitude might be coloured by your hindhu background - i mean, hindus and muslims weren't exactly hugging and kissing during the emergency. as i understand the cries on one side were, at one time,'death to all hindus' on one side, and 'death to all muslims' on the other. or did attenborough get that wrong in the ghandi movie?
My attitude could have been coloured by those incidences - but - why I went to school/college/university ? I think I have enough education to get over my prejudices and study a matter with a fresh perspective.

However, i doubt that studying in Madrashas does the same to a muslim.

It was at the time of Independence jani, not emergency" and any film is a poor source of history - films, even if they remain true to the facts, are films, not documentaries. And even documentaries are not good source either.

Look into the history of partition of India - before 1000CE, there hardly were any muslims in the Indian subcontinent. More than 90% of muslims in Indian subcontinent are converts from Hinduism.
Yet at the time leading to independence, these people with the same ethnic & cultural background demanded a separate state, based on religion only, They got it and drove the Hindus out of those areas. There still are millions of muslims in India, leaving peacfully . . . .

As regards to the reference to the violence during partition - please find out who called for "direct action"; please find out who started the killings first; find out why in Calcutta, naked bodies of Hindu women were seen hanging from the first floor balconies in several places after they were raped and their limbs and breasts were chopped off in the "great Calcutta Riot". . . . . then, only then - if you feel it is correct to blame the Hindus, blame them.

But I do not blame the muslims for all these - I do blame them for their silence. I do not know of any muslim condemning those atrocities . . . . I have however seen several condemning Hindus and several denying any muslim involvement . . . . . almost 60 yrs have passed.
_________________________
Believe in nothing unless it agrees with your own reason, knowledge & common sense
Be good, do good

Top

Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Twitter Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Facebook Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to MySpace Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Del.icio.us Digg Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Yahoo My Web Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Google Bookmarks Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Stumbleupon Add Re: Pope provokes Islam - 9/14 to Reddit
Page 2 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >

Moderator:  Lisa Shea 

Want to reply? Register as a Forum Member - it's quick, free and fun!
Latest Posts
updates and LOTS of questions need help!??
by Ashley Horan
Yesterday at 09:57 PM
updates and LOTS of questions need help!??
by Ashley Horan
Yesterday at 09:48 PM
New Cockatiel
by stacie01872
Yesterday at 05:18 AM
getting somewhere with my parakeets...finally!
by stacie01872
Yesterday at 05:07 AM
Meditate
by Lisa Shea
12/15/14 10:09 PM
Driftwood Sculptures of Horses
by Lisa Shea
12/12/14 02:14 PM
Please Help! Urgent Medical Question
by Kimash
12/11/14 04:09 PM
Vegas and Art
by Lisa Shea
12/10/14 11:59 PM
Yoga
by Lisa Shea
12/10/14 03:54 PM
Surreal Art on Japanese Island
by Lisa Shea
12/04/14 05:03 PM
Forum Guidelines
This forum takes web safety issues very seriously. Please make sure you have read and understood our Forum Guidelines before posting.
Sponsored Link
Support Our Friends
The Animal Rescue Site