Hopefully this isn't some sort of cheap shot at me, since I neither preach hatred nor am I brainwashed.

I've read all of the posts and I saw truth in both sides, but I have to say if I had to choose a side it would be with som and galacticus. I too am angered by the lack of outcry from the "peaceful" muslims who don't practice extremist Islam.

Say what you want about American foreign policy, but atleast we are allowed to protest and get involved in protests, even though the protests usually go against our government.

I'll just give you some for instances. The issues we've seen in Somalia, Darfur, and South Africa, had it not been for American's protesting at the steps of the capital, America would probably not have gotten involved. Unfortunatly it's all about greed with our elected leaders, and those countries don't have anything monitary to offer, so they usually get swept aside for more lucrative oil producing countries.

Is it right? No it pisses me off, but again it pisses people off enough to "protest" and try for some change. Right after the attacks of 9-11 we didn't see that from Muslims. Sure there were some who went on tv and said a few things, but for the most part they were dancing in the streets cheering the demise of the great satan.

For all of the humanist talk that has gone on here, about how most people are decent, and most people are good, hopefully we can come to the agreement that decent people don't dance when someone is dead. Decent people don't celebrate when several 1000 die. Decent people don't say stuff like this.

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome ... (May) God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement, posted on Sunday on an Internet site often used by al Qaeda and other militant groups."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenew...=rss&rpc=22

I can't stand the fact that people are dieing in Iraq, on either side. I read a blog by a 21yr old Iraqi girl that details the day by day stuff she's seen and it breaks my heart. My only question to the "peaceful" side of Islam is, "Where are you hiding? Why not step up and make yourself heard?"

I too am upset by the silence of the muslim community who doesn't agree with the radicals. If the KKK were to suddenly come marching down my street using God to justify their racist crap, I'd be the first one in their face protesting against them. If the knuckleheads from Westboro Baptist came to a cemetary near me to protest a soldier's funeral, I'd be the first one there telling them to go home and stop preaching hate.

Did the Pope choose the wrong words? Yeah we can all see he did, but the message stands true, we need to come to some sort of peacful agreement without resorting to murder every time there's a problem.

Another perfect example of this is the media. How many times have people drawn Jesus in the most unflattering ways? South Park has a recurring Jesus character, and although Christians picket the studio, you don't see them blowing it up. But when they went to put a Mohammed character in, the Muslims were up in arms, so Comedy Central made them stop.

Carlos Mencia had a recent skit where Jesus, Shiva, Moses, and L Ron Hubbard had a Royal Rumble type wrestling match. I watch the show all the time, and I was offended, but I was also curious as to why no Mohammed?

Again why should people be afraid to speak about their beliefs in public? Why doesn't anyone worry about offending Christians, or Jews, or Hindus? Mainly because they know those groups won't send a suicide bomber just to make a point. If there are so many Muslims outragged about the radical approach, then why aren't they heard?

Oh and I know I'll get a few "You're a hateful person" responses from this, but truth be told there's nothing hateful in what I just said. I don't hate Muslims, I just wish the decent ones would step up and join the rest of society to oppose the nuts.

This is a really difficult stuation.

From my own reading, it appears to me, that if you travel back to the middle ages, Islam was fairly enlightened and Christendom, largely, was not. That has been my interpretation, based on reading about Spain and the crusades. I don't really know what was going on elsewhere.

I think that we have to look at history to understand the present. Some of the recent events in the Balkans can only be understood by recognising the history of the area.

However, where do we draw the line?
For example, we have talked about reparations for the slave trade ~ but who pays whom?

We know that in 1492 Jews and Moors became unwanted in the 'Catholic Spains'.

We know that 'Israel' was artificially reinvented in the middle east. We know that 'white men' took over the lands of Africans, Native Americans, Australian Aboriginies.

We know about forced Roman Catholic conversion in South America and about the horrors of the Inquisition.

We know that, way back, we are all related so why can't we be one big happy family?
But how many families do you know who all get on well together?
It seems to be human nature to want to be, or need to be, on one side or another ~ a clan; a tribe; a football team; a religion; etc.

Can we put the past behind us? Is it possible to learn from the past, rather than using the past to promote hatred?

I think we all need to acknowledge the crimes of our forbears, but also to acknowledge that they are not us. Then perhaps we can actually address those crimes a bit more objectively.

Is it really possible, here and now, for us all to 'love one another'?

Rape and mutilation of women go on in times of chaos and war. It seems that there is straightforward fighting and then there are 'war crimes' that disgust us. We have discussed these before and it seems that all 'sides' may be responsible for such atrocities.

Can Islam and 'Western Christendom' live in harmony?
Well, I have Moslem friends and we can live in harmony ~ that attitude needs to be extended and the other one ~ the one where extremism flourishes and even moderate Moslems give passive support ~ has to be dealt with.

As with anyone else, my first thought is one of anger, but that will not help. We have to find the root of the dissatisfaction and then deal with it ~ or try to.

We need to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and try to understand.

With regard to Moslems ~

~ is it to do with their oil being used by the west and their countries being manipulated for that reason?

~ is it to do with Palestinians losing land to Israel?

~ is it to do with out-and-out racism and lack of opportunities?

~ is it to do with Islamic youngsters in the West lacking a knowledge of who they really are & where they belong?

~ is it a combination of these and other factors?

However, I have to say, I cannot understand why anyone who hates the 'west' should choose to live here.

I have said it about other 'terrorists' before. If they hate us so much, why choose to live amongst us? I can't understand that.

And I am very concerned when I hear, as I once did on TV, extreme leaders saying that 'Britain is an Islamic country now'.

To me, we have to do a few things now.
We have to speak clearly about the problem ~ sometimes 'political correctness' stops this.

While noting the wrongs of extremist Islamists, we must acknowledge that there are many good law-abiding Moslems ~ and also that 'the west' has done its share of the wrong in the world.

We need to address youth problems in all communities ~ crime is rampant amongst disaffected young people.

We must educate people better, so that we understand each other, and each other's histories.

I think that it should also be made more clear that, when someone emigrates, they and their families must realise that, if they are moving to a very different culture, they have to accept it as it is.

There are countries, though, with laws and traditions that seem wrong to many ~ stoning; castration, honour killing; etc. Should we just accept them in the same way?
I don't think so ~ but if we are going to say 'when in Rome ...' shouldn't it work both ways?

Perhaps 'the world' needs to deal with these matters ~ perhaps the UN or a similar body. Certainly these 'traditions' should not be 'imported' when people migrate.

A lot of this is to do with education and with accepting that all cultures have their 'bad bits'.

not that any of us can possibly form an opinion on the attitude of the muslim community as our media cannot be trusted to give fair representation.

all i've seen here is dreision and criticism of the muslim world. not the slightest hint of a positive suggestion for a way forward. what does that tell you?

believer, you're basically saying we do things better, why can't they do it like we do. different culture, you can't really compare. i don't like it either when people get easily offended, and kick off, but pointing it out again and again is not the way forward for mutual respect. there is no right or wrong side here, but the first step would have to be not to keep bombing muslims. after all we've bombed a hell of a lot more of them then they have bombed us. simple really. look ahead, not behind you.

[quote]Originally posted by Galacticus: [b]Capt'n regarding "visiting extremists websites" YES I have, otherwise I wouldn't suggest to anybody to visit them - how could I ? I'am not one of the rethorical hatred preaching, brainwashed, blind Believers! I have travelled North Africa, Southeastasia and the Indian Subcontinent by far and wide and think that I got quite a good impression of the great picture...[/quote][/b] Ok, then show us the sites where you saw that. Not that it’s difficult for me to believe that some Islamic monkey is talking monkeyness on a website. Any fool can have a website. It would take me less than five minutes to find you a white supremacist, neo-nazi website where Christian western monkeys are talking the same nonsense. But to claim some rumour you heard as personal experience is dishonest and irresponsible, and to take the words of some random radical group as a basis to tar an entire religion and civilization is even more so. I too have visited India, Africa and SE Asia, and the great picture I got an impression of is quite different from the one you got. You asked earlier whether there were churches in Islamic countries, and I certainly recall seeing quite a lot of old churches in places like Cairo, Amman and the Arab quarters of Jerusalem and Bethlehem…churches that have been around much longer than there have been mosques in London, Paris or New York. [quote][b]Further more, could you please be so kind to point out the part of the popes speech where he 'supposedly' tried to incinerate hatred or keep the "crusaders' going?[/quote][/b] I have already done so…the pope said "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Yes, I know he was quoting somebody, but the implication is fairly clear that he is judging the entire religion of Islam and their prophet, not just a few radicals. If that’s not polarizing rhetoric, then I don’t know what is. Anyway, he apologized, so good for him, and no, I don’t think the man is a nazi. [quote][b]Why should 'western society' always apologise for the islamic radicals, hatred towards it's very own cause and core values??????? The radical faction gotta be laughing their gut's off - about our 'cowardishness, next will 'western society' apologise for an terror attack and say: " Really sorry that we happen to be alive and are different to your culture and belief, we will commit mass suicide soon![/quote][/b] Since when is slagging off the entire Islamic faith a “core value” of Western society? Who has suggested that anybody should apologise for their existence? Apparently it is the pope who wishes that Muslims should apologise for their existence, if he’s claiming that their religion has brought forth nothing but evil. How are they supposed to react to that? I don’t seek to play blame games because I think blame games are childish and useless. I am concerned with responsibility, not blame. In the game of responsibility, I think it’s fair to say that the person with more power, means, influence and credibility has greater responsibility than some random radical nutter. Thus, a powerful western government, and the recognized leader of a major faith, such as the pope, have a much greater responsibility, and are held to much more serious account than Abdullah Nobody and his little jihadi blog. If these leaders are saying “well, since the jihadis don’t apologise then we don’t have to” then we are holding our own standards to those of the extremists we claim to oppose. By making such sweeping and prejudiced comments, the pope is actually only legitimizing their radicals and proving them right, and making life more difficult for moderate Muslims. So while Osama and the jihadis may have started this little “clash of civilizations”, it seems to me that there are some powerful people in the West that seem intent on pouring gasoline onto the fire when they should be trying to put it out. [quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] I don't hate Muslims, I just wish the decent ones would step up and join the rest of society to oppose the nuts. [/b][/quote]That’s great, but in order to do that, we need to make common cause with the “decent ones” in order to marginalize the nasty ones. Insulting their whole religion isn’t really the best way to go about that.

I can understand that, but communication requires dialog, and dialog, will often lead to someone getting offended. The problem is that when you offend a Muslim you risk having your entire way of life disrupted by a suicide bomber.

In the short time I've been on this forum, I've been called a redneck, brainwashed, superstitious, racist, hateful... I've been offended several times. The difference is that I don't go out of my way to try and kill the offenders because I was offended.

Carlos Mencia is one of my favorite comics, mainly because he makes jokes from a latin point of view, which I can relate to. He has done several skits that I find offensive to my religious beliefs, but I watch him for the rest of his humor. I usually turn off the tv when I see that he says something against Jesus.

If I one day decide that he's gone to far, as was the case with South Park, I just stop watching all together. I won't support a show or a person who ridicules my beliefs, and I have the option, and right to not do so.

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. Haddock: [b]That’s great, but in order to do that, we need to make common cause with the “decent ones” in order to marginalize the nasty ones. Insulting their whole religion isn’t really the best way to go about that. [/b][/quote]How much more of a common cause do you want than peace? Is it so hard to ask that those who are opposed to the violence done in the name of their god step up and let themselves be heard? Is it too difficult, for those who do not feel as the extremists do, to make statments condeming their crazed bretheren? If a Christian were to bomb an abortion clinic, which has happened, in the name of God, then I would step up and say, "Hey don't blame God for your ignorance, and desire for someone to die." If any one of us saw and injustice in the world around us, I would hope that we would step up and call whomever is doing it wrong. By sitting on the sidelines and doing "NOTHING" about the problem, then the problem will never get fixed. Was the pope wrong to say what he did? Yes he was, he should have used more common sense and diplomacy. But at the same time it's his point of view, and his "words" why send out a death squad to kill people who may not share his views, but belong to his church? Since when did it become acceptable to kill someone over words? It reminds me of the idiots I grew up with in the Bronx, who wanted to start a fight or kill someone over a wrong look, or smart remark. If you can't argue your point like a decent person then you have no right to claim decency. When I was living in NY I made a smart mouthed comment about someone. Rather than retaliate with another comment he pulled a gun and wanted to end my life. Why? The whole mess ended with me getting a gun, him getting a gun, several of our friends all getting guns, and preparing to shot each other for a simple smart a$$ remark. That mentality of "You offended me, so now I must kill you" is silly and barbaric, and doesn't belong in modern day "decent" society. I didn't want to kill him, and I certainly didn't want to die, but left with the choice of him or me, I would have chosen me any day. The escalation of arms will not stop as long as this narrow minded approach continues. James puts it best, "How can you say you love God, and hate your brother with the same mouth?"

[quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] The problem is that when you offend a Muslim you risk having your entire way of life disrupted by a suicide bomber.[/quote][/b] Which is still better than having your entire way of life disrupted by having your country invaded, daisy cutters thrown on you, your government overthrown, etc. etc. etc. [quote][b] Carlos Mencia is one of my favorite comics, mainly because he makes jokes from a latin point of view, which I can relate to. He has done several skits that I find offensive to my religious beliefs, but I watch him for the rest of his humor. I usually turn off the tv when I see that he says something against Jesus.[/quote][/b] I love politically incorrect comedians. I haven’t seen Mencia, but I get a kick out of Chapelle, Ali G, George Carlin, etc. But the Pope isn’t a comedian, and neither is Bush and neither is Blair. When these people say such things it isn’t funny. As my mother says: there’s a time and a place and it isn't now and it isn't here. [quote]Originally posted by Believer: [b] How much more of a common cause do you want than peace? [/quote][/b] Wouldn’t that be nice? The West has hardly taken up the banner of peace, let’s not even get going down that path. Janimal is correct that if we start taking a body count, we’ll be way ahead on the scoreboard. Peace can’t be a common cause until we decide to embrace it ourselves. [quote][b]Is it so hard to ask that those who are opposed to the violence done in the name of their god step up and let themselves be heard?[/quote][/b] So what do you propose to do about it? Wag your fingers at the Muslims and tell them they’re naughty? The problem with the moderate Muslims is that they’re caught between a rock and a hard place. They have grievances with their own extremists, but they also have grievances with the Western powers. If the Western powers keep behaving in a manner as to validate the extremists and their arguments, it weakens the arguments of the moderates and makes them more inclined to shut up and hide in the corner. What do you do when your enemies fight each other? You pour yourself a drink and enjoy the show. So we’ll have to take a more proactive stance than just complaining about Muslims. Embracing peace is part of it. Not putting up with “our” leaders making stupid and inflammatory remarks is another. [quote][b] When I was living in NY I made a smart mouthed comment about someone. Rather than retaliate with another comment he pulled a gun and wanted to end my life. Why? The whole mess ended with me getting a gun, him getting a gun, several of our friends all getting guns, and preparing to shot each other for a simple smart a$$ remark. [/b][/quote]That’s a good story, Believer. I think it illustrates that things can get out of hand quickly. The only way to stop them getting out of hand is if somebody decides to be the bigger man and start behaving like a responsible adult. If the other guy isn’t up to it, then the responsibility falls on you. I don't have stories of such fights when I was a kid, but I remember when I used to quarrel with my siblings. When I gave my mother the "but he started it" excuse, her reply was: "I don't care who started it, you're the eldest and the most mature so you're going to stop it."

I'm all for making our leaders take more responsibility, but then we come to the question of will it matter?

When you read stuff like this you get a better picture of the craziness behind their leaders.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367232-details/The+Pope+must+die%252C+says+Muslim/article.do

"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life."

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

I mean since when is it ok to take a life for some poorly thought out words? Even worse, when did it become acceptable to kill hundreds or thousands of innocents all because one person said or did something you didn't agree with?

In my opinion there's just no winning. Even if we pulled out of Iraq, abandoned, Israel, and pulled all of our troops out of every part of the world, the US would still be at fault. Instead of being accused of meddling, we'd be accused of not doing enough, or being greedy.

Honestly I think we should pull every troop out of the middle east, drop the money into alternative fuels, and end our dependence on oil. Then we'd be able to say, "Your problems are your problems deal with it on your side, and leave us alone." I know isolationism doesn't really work, but it has to beat painting a bullseye on our rears and hoping for the best.

When all is said and done that's why we're even in the middle east. Oil, they have it, we need it, and we've killed and died for it. To me it's just too much. I'd rather buy a diesel, and run my car on corn oil, and recycled french fry oil.

Well, I try not to deride or criticise too much