i'm not sure there is quite as much silence as you say. i have heard many muslims speak out against violence and try to make sure they are not lumped together with the jihadis. on the other hand, if you feel cornered, is it not understandable to give tentative support to your 'freedom fighters' even if you do not approve of their methods? i have come across that way of thinking from some irish republicans, and i must say there are circumstances where this is seems acceptable. there comes a point of 'needs must'.

all the while, none of this compares to the violence perpetrated by the west in the middle east, so its all a matter of balance. as a westener i'm not about to criticise muslims for taking the hard line when this is essentially reactionary to the atrocities committed by america and the uk.

as regard the Independence jani, i'm glad you are willing to entertain the notion your judgement could be coloured by your background. it was a serious question and i wasn't trying to sling mud at you. i think you understand. however, is it ever worth saying 'he started it'? i know my knowledge of indian history is a little limited - you can't get your head into everything, so pardon my ignorance - but unless i'm very much mistaken, there were wrongs on both sides, and gandhi's successes were down to the fact that it was his way NOT to retaliate. thats waht made him so special, and it really should be enough to overcome the fingerpointing.

Quote Somsuj: "I do blame them for their silence to all these. I do blame them for not speaking up against those fundamentalist governments, jihadis and suicide bombers, While they are very prompt to protest any incidences like this.
There silence, I can only interprete as implicit support."

Me too to the fullest!

@janimal in one sentence you write:

"....i'm not about to criticise muslims for taking the hard line when this is essentially reactionary to the atrocities committed by america and the uk..."

and then: ".......is it ever worth saying 'he started it'?"

Under this pretext, what did Benedict did 'start' then?

The WHOLE meaning, the intend of what he REALLY wanted to express, the message is complety blown away by the counterreaction of those who condone the atrocities commited by people out of their very own ranks - and really sorry - out of their own ranks - why devide and say "Hey in my neighborhood...there are some really friendly ones..." Seems compared to the atrocities committed by those 'few' to be downplaying something that is absolutelty evil and unjust - sorry for these harsh but clear words - everything else is just belittleing a serious situation!

What are all these 'Muslim Brotherhoods and Movements" like Hammaz, Hezbollah, al Quaeda, the Taleban, Jemah Islamia etc.... all about?

Ever visited one of their recruting websites?

They OPENLY call for the killing of the "Infidels" - we all know too well who that exactly is...!

How many suicide- and rocketattacks, kidnappings, highjackings, Israel has to face almost on a daily base, the "West', Turkey, India, Paikstan, Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Afgahnistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunesia, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Jemen, Spain, Marocco, Thailand, Singapore, the USA, England, France .... have they all commited atrocities pointed towards the muslim community in the RECENT past?

When was the last time a muslim was stoned or got his hands chopped of because braeking the law in the US, OZ, or GB?

Why there are no Terrorattacks by indiginious Indians of south American States, on Spain?

Why there are no Terroristattacks by the Aboriginal People of Australia or the US against the 'foreign People" which occupied "their Land"?

I have to listen and read after these words of this man so much about "but they have too..."

Where do we want to go - go further and further - the Victim becomes the Culprit and vice versa...

Where WE have to start?

How long the Crusades are ago, what was the CAUSE of them?

How long the Inquisition has passed?

HOw long ago the Osman Empire invaded Europe and threatened to come all the way to St.Peter?

What was the "Hagia Sophia" in Istambul before it became a Mosque?

The Pope of today has NOTHING to do with the 3rd Reich!

The Cartoons where simple CARTOONS - not meant to hurt anyones religious feelings!

What was and did Saddam Hussein do? What famous Phrase did he coin?

What did the Iranian Revolutionary Guards do when the Shah was toppeld?

What did the Taleban proclaim again and again after it was clear that they harboured ObL and Major al Quaeda Figureheads?

If so....well to incite the heated feelings would take much less and could easely start a wildfire and it wouldn't need a Pope!

Why is it always the "West"?

It is O.K. because it is their cultur, to stone a women which became pregnant, not being married to a man, to stone to death?

Is this 21st Century justice?

Is it O.K. to shoot women or beat them heavely because their ankles where showing?

Is it O.K. to chop off someones hands because he was stealing?

"The one without sin, throws the first stone!"

And in this case, the Pope did not 'throw a stone'!

By now he finds himself a lot of support, interesstingly not only by believers from the christian or cath'lic faith!

There are f.E. the German Chancellor, A german Philosopher, many German and European Newspaper Colummnists, Editors...

There were 250.000+ Visitors in Regensburg and Munic!

Maybe it's time...people wake up!

I am absolutely against the atrocities committed in the name of any particular belief and the silent condoning of these by the masses following this faith and of the thereof resulting doubletongued dialouge of: "if you hadn't we wouldn't!"

What have the thousands of (mostly innocent) cicilians, who died, lost their limbs, their loved ones, their children, their neighbors etc. in the countless Attacks under the umbrella of "the rightious almighty one" done to their killers or their faith???????????????????????

Think! What have they possibly done, to find themselves all of a sudden, taken responseable, judged upon without any defence and being subsequently maimed & murdered!

These incredible injustices and the Condonement thereof by the masses, is what I simply cannot get into my grey cells - it just won't get in there how hard I try.....

Galacticus and Somsuj, the silence is what bothers me, also. And I think it plays to the need of Americans, if not other Westerners, to feel "guilty" and want to take the blame for everything.

I, also, wondered why ordinary people like me don't hear/read much of how wanting infidels to die is not an integral part of the moslem faith. In my head, I know that it is not - or at least, I think it is not. Yet, I wonder if the ordinary muslims begin to feel that way, no matter what the official tenets of their religion.

And ordinary people in the U.S., like me, begin to think that all muslims, indeed the whole Arab world, wants us to die. I understand that some feel we "brought this on ourselves."

Whether that is true or not, I'll not just quietly lean over for my spanking - or more likely, decapitation.

It is fear, but it is also reality, that one does not go unprotected and alone to an area that predeominates in people who hate you (as a group, as well as individually) - whether night or day.

And the fear has been deliberately nurtured; indeed, that is the goal of the terrorists. Now, you fear right in your own neighborhood and home.

Maybe it is time for ordinary people, throughout the world (like me), to end our silence. Perhaps, we should begin to end pointing fingers or crying penitence. And speak positive things.

exactly. there has been so much bloodshed on both sides that there is no more right or wrong. except of course being the first to stop retaliating. but then, nobody looks to be about to do that.

Carl:

I like what you wrote a couple of posts back. Personally, I couldn't give a flying ---- about them and what they think!

Mark

YET - that's what the pope proposed :

The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application... Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today.

If we want to understand why we don't hear more of an outcry from the Muslims regarding their fundamentalists, I think a lot of it has to do with the polarising rhetoric coming out of the other side, such as the comments the pope made.

There are some people in this world who want a clash of civilisations to occur, and who work to make it happen. Some of them are Muslim jihadists, others are on "our side" and they are the ones who invent the kind of Islamophobic rhetoric and propaganda that we hear from the pope and some of the posters here. It only leads to polarisation, so if you are a moderate Muslim that doesn't believe in killing people, you are forced to choose sides, either your own fundamentalists and fanatics, or the other guys that tar all your kind with the same brush and who are on a "crusade" against Islam. If you disagree with your own guys, then you're a traitor. Sounds familiar?

That's the world we are heading to, either you're with us or you're with them. Again, I say that that situation is being deliberately fuelled, and not only by Osama and his jihadis but also by people in the west that stand to gain from such a confrontation.

Somsuj: "I want to increase dialogue between cultures, but in order to do this, first we need to incease logic and understand that your culture sucks and has added nothing of value to the world and your religion is rubbish, too."

Do you really think that's a way to increase dialogue?

Have you?

bulls**t. Show me.

Ha ha - a lot of people are saying that to Hinduism for a loong time - how many Hindu radical group intend on killing members of other religion you have seen so far ?

Besides - from what I have seen, it does not seem that was what said in the speech. the quotations got the publicity not the intent.

Captain, I see your point. And there are parts of me that have always agreed with that position.

At other times, I react just as you have described the ordinary person there reacting.

And the sad thing is that different cultures, religions, countries, races - but hopefully NOT human male and female - are becoming so very polarized.

We need a world-wide challenge to give us motivation to work together for a crucial goal. Apparently poverty, hunger, violence, and environmental problems are not enough, now.

I'd rather that challenge NOT be the invasion of some awful human-hating beings from galaxies far away. Or even some earth-ending catastrophe.

I also have my mental reservations about an antichrist uniting the world. But uniting the world does carry an appeal.

But just as we can't judge others until we take out the beam in our own eyes, maybe we can't hope to unite the world until our tolerance level grows higher.

Sports and trade help. I think discussion boards which reach across boundaries help.

But so many of us ordinary people just simply do not really have the chance to interact with, let alone get to know the heart and spirit of people foreign to us.

May the force and the desire to live and let live grow within us.