Can God be Wrong?

I was brought up to believe that God (if God exists) is perfect ~ eternal, invisible, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc.

Supposedly, it was God who gave Moses the 'Ten Commandments', so that 'we' would know right from wrong.

Believer says:

'Picture God as a pure white piece of paper, so pure so white that it hurts to look at it because it radiates it's own light. Then picture sin as a small pen mark on that paper. No matter how perfect the paper is it is now marked, and that one tiny blemish makes it unperfect that's us. The blemish in God's perfect design.

'Does God forgive all sins? Yes He does, but its not because we're good people who deserve the forgiveness, but rather because He's a good God who offers us grace.'

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000725#000005

'Again if we who live in sin, and are imperfect can devise a justice system with rules about self defense, and self preservation, I know God, who is perfect also recognizes self defense and self preservation.'

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000413;p=4#000053

'Even one sin is enough to keep you out of heaven because God is a pure and just God.'

'Now in the God relm sin is imperfection. When you die with this sin you go before a perfect God, who cannot have imperfection in his presense.'

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000406;p=3#000030


And Dattaswami says:
'God is never unkind- He is kind or neutral only.'

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000915


But in the Bible we have God breaking his own commandments ~ we have discussed, before, the slaughter of the Amalekite babies, and MBAS's signature: 'Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. - Numbers 31' ~ which must refer to rape.


From Genesis, it seems obvious that Adam & Eve were intended to be perfect, but weren't.

So, we have a God who is not always kind and who does seem to make mistakes.

Christians have given explanations for this in the past, on this board, but it strikes me that the God of the Old Testament, who is, supposedly, also the God of the New Testament, had some very nasty streaks in him and made some serious errors.

If God is always perfect & right, then 'he' cannot be the 'being' described in the Bible.

If 'he' is not the 'being' described in the Bible, then who are Christians & Jews (and Moslems, too, I suppose) worshipping?

If God exists, and is wondrous & perfect, then shouldn't we be seeking 'him' out, rather than relying on the folk tales of an ancient nomadic tribe?

Can God be wrong?
Can God do wrong?

If yes, then why worship this imperfect idea?

If no, then The Bible is not a sacred book & does not describe God.

I may be wrong, but I am guessing that other sacred stories are too old and too bound to specific cultures, to be universally correct too.

Where should we go from here?

[Quote by PDM]

From Genesis, it seems obvious that Adam & Eve were intended to be perfect, but weren't.

So, we have a God who is not always kind and who does seem to make mistakes.

Christians have given explanations for this in the past, on this board, but it strikes me that the God of the Old Testament, who is, supposedly, also the God of the New Testament, had some very nasty streaks in him and made some serious errors.

If God is always perfect & right, then 'he' cannot be the 'being' described in the Bible.

If 'he' is not the 'being' described in the Bible, then who are Christians & Jews (and Moslems, too, I suppose) worshipping?

If God exists, and is wondrous & perfect, then shouldn't we be seeking 'him' out, rather than relying on the folk tales of an ancient nomadic tribe?

Can God be wrong?
Can God do wrong?

If yes, then why worship this imperfect idea?

If no, then The Bible is not a sacred book & does not describe God.

I may be wrong, but I am guessing that other sacred stories are too old and too bound to specific cultures, to be universally correct too.

Where should we go from here? [/QUOTE]

In a nutshell, that's pretty much where I am, also, PDM. Unlike you, I accepted the protestant church route, then rebelled, and then even became a pastor in it. But I've come full circle, to seriously questioning if any or all of the sacred texts of the various religions are right.

My most pivotal encounter (or vision, or dream?) with a being I decided was an angel or messenger from God left me with a conviction that there is a God who cares about me.

But the same encounter left me with uncertainty as to whether Jesus was the only way, or whether any way was correct exclusively, or just what our correct relationship with God should be, or even who or what God is.

I have feelings and intuitions, but I just do not know for sure.

To be truthful, I do trust my feelings and intuitions, so I am going along in the direction of keeping myself open and aware, and sharing my kindness with people and animals that I come into contact with.

What bothers me most about the "fundamentals" of the "Believers" of the world and of the "Dattaswamis" of the world is the price that has to be paid. Fundamental Christianity sees man as flawed and sinful and always lost apart from God. Dattaswami sees mans as lowest of the low unless he is selflessly serving the human incarnation of God.

What if "Adam and Eve" were NOT intended to be perfect, but a starting point?

What if God is real (and maybe not even solitary, but a network of beings, for example) but nothing like portrayed in the Bible, Koran, or any other "sacred" text?

I do think we should be seeking him, but it may be that he (or "they" or "it") is also seeking us or putting up "signs" or "hints" that we might see at various stages of our lives.

And maybe not.

Rather than bemoan my fallen state (as seen by Calvinist Christians) or my low state (as seen by Dattaswami), why not seek to live as vibrant and complete a life as I can? I want to have balance, and to interact with others, and to remain open to the God question.

As I am almost 64, the time approaches (and could be today) that I will die. At that point, I either go into a waiting pattern for whatever's next, I go directly to whatever's next, or I cease to exist.

So it's important to me. I accept that.

So I choose. I choose to not put my trust in the religions that have fostered hate and judgmentalism. (Paradoxically, I still think of beings such as Jesus as being one of many "signs" of God, and also the angel/messenger I encountered talked of having only one friend - Jesus). I don't reject completely the Christians' view of God, nor any others' views.

But I choose to believe that seeking him and
being willing to love him, and loving myself, and others is about all that any of us can really do.

Is that enough? I think it may be.

Yes, this is sort of where I'm at too, except I haven't had any really vivid experience of God, but I have had certain 'spiritual' experiences and feelings.

I don't believe in Christianity, but in a way....I'm prepared to accept that it might be the right path for some people. As I said before, I no longer call myself a Catholic or a Christian, yet when I walked into St Peter's in Rome last September......I still knew, felt in my gut, whatever....that I was in a sacred place. Maybe it was just in my own mind, but it felt real.

Yet Christianity isn't the path for me. And neither are any of the other revealed religions.....I don't say that they don't each contain some spiritual truth, or guides for moral living. But I can't just accept a 'holy book' as literal fact.

I suppose I'm an agnostic with leanings towards simple monotheism. Yet if there is a God, I'm convinced that no human being can imagine what God is like. The holy books contain other people's metaphors and conceptions of what God might be like, not a direct description of God.

So can God do wrong? Since we can't even imagine God, I don't suppose we can begin to judge 'him'. Since 'he' would be above our plane of existence, I suppose our code of morals doesn't even begin to fit?

But as for the Yahweh of the Bible.......well, he shows a lot of human attributes, and some pretty bad ones too.

Ok let's look at why fundamentalist have this view. I can't speak for Dattaswami, because I don't agree with 99.9% of his teachings, but I will answer for myself.

Are we flawed? Let's not look at our standards but the ones set down by God in the 10 commandments. We'll leave out the first 4 for those who don't believe in God at all.

5 Honor your parents - How many of us have actually kept this one? I know I've done things several times throughout my life that dishonors my parents, I think it's part of being a parent to expect your child to let you down every now and then.

6 You shall not murder - Ok so most of us do not murder, but consider that Jesus sets a new standard for this one where He says that, since God judges based on our hearts, if you hate someone you are guilty of murder in God's eyes.

7 You shall not commit adultery - Again most of us aren't guilty of this, but again new standard or interpretation by Jesus. If we so much as look at someone to lust we're guilty of this one, so I don't know about any of you, but I've broken this quite a bit.

8 You shall not steal - I'm sure most of us have downloaded music or something, maybe recorded a cd to tape, taken a piece of candy, price or size doesn't matter, once again it's the heart.

9 You shall not bear false witness - Ok we've all lied before so this one is out.

10 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or house - The phrase keeping up with the Jones' didn't just come about without reason. We all "want" what others have, it's human nature.

And there in lies the problem. Most of these things are "just human nature". It's in our very nature to do wrong, yet ask anyone on the street "Are you a good person" and the answer is ALWAYS yes. Why is that? Simple we can explain ANYTHING away. We constantly make excuses for our actions, and when compared to the guy who's viewing kiddie porn, or beating his wife, well we're not bad. But ask either of those guys if they think they're good people, and again you'll probably get a yes.

The guy viewing kiddie porn might say, well I just look at it I'm not actually taking the pictures, the guy beating his wife no doubt has the typical, well if she would just listen to me and not make me mad, she knows how I get when I get angry...

So what does this teach us? Simple our standards fluctuate and are suceptable to change. God's standards don't change, and are the same through time.

So are we sinful? Yes we are. Are we flawed? Yes we are. Do we generally seek to be Holy like God? No we don't for the most part we trod along as best we can, but we almost always screw up.

But it's a matter of balance, Believer. These flaws that you mention, based on the 10 commandments, as part of human nature -

any one of them represent human drives and emotions which could be good at one end of the spectrum, and bad at the other end.

For example, honoring a parent can be bad when that parent is abusing you. And feeling guilt about not honoring such a parent could be bad.

Looking at someone with lust. Take this out of our lives, and would we still desire our mates?

Stealing - at what point are others' business dealings with us no better than stealing? Or ours with others.

Lieing - sometimes, a lie is better than the truth.

See where I'm going with this? It's not as cut and dried as the stone tablets would dictate.

By the way, Believer, thank you for not seeming to be offended that I used your name generically. I (and I think most people on this board) respect you and your stance and balance.

I certainly have respect, and liking, for Believer as a man, even though I disagree with him on a regular basis.

I can understand what you're saying Carl, but keep in mind that some of those particular instances you mentioned are allowed. For instance, a parent who abuses a child is not dishonored when that child turns them in. In fact in order to get that parent help the child should turn them in.

Looking at your wife with lust is nowhere near looking at the Victoria's Secret models and having lustful thoughts. One is ok, while the other is a clear violation.

Dishonest business practices are also covered under the Mosaic law. That whole part about wearing single fiber clothes was to keep the clothing makers from mixing substandard fibers in with good fibers and passing them off as good material.

Either way we still fail miserably when given the task of living by God's standards. That in itself is the essence of sin. We have this perfect God who cannot have imperfection and we are an imperfect creation. The arguement has been made that we were made imperfectly, but the truth is that we were made perfectly, but by our own choice allowed imperfection into our daily existence.

Everyone has a built in mechanism for knowing when they've done wrong. This is something we're born with not just raised with. The child who tells a lie to get out of trouble knows that they're doing something wrong, or have done something wrong, and must lie to get out of the punisment.

Do they truly have a concept of right and wrong when it comes to God, and His standards? No but they do have the basic understanding that what they're doing is wrong.

Paul says that he didn't know sin until he was shown the law. He goes on to say that now that he knows what sin is the law becomes a master to him and he a slave to sin. Without rules or correction from our parents we would grow up living on impulse. Essentially we would have wiped ourselves out years ago because while some may strive to be decent people, decency is subjective. What you may consider acceptable may not be acceptable to me and visa versa.

God's law introduces us to these rules. Through it we know our faults, through it we're taught morality. The problems come when we set those laws aside and impose our own moral code, because the further we get from God's standard the closer we get to satan's standard, which is anything goes.

A great example of this is abortion. When does a life become a life? Well society tells us it's not until the 3rd trimester, yet we now have a push to provide late term abortions, so does that mean that we're killing a life? Some will argue yes, some no. As science advances we'll start to see a truer definition of when life begins.

Every year that goes by premature child births are handled with better treatment. It may be that someday we'll be advanced enough to handle a child birth weeks into a pregnancy. When that day comes will we then overturn abortion? No we wouldn't be able to, since abortion isn't about the life of the child so much as the quality of life of the parent.

You see we fall short of God's standard every day, and we make excuses for this and call it a grey area not worth looking into. Well how long till there is no black and white, and all we have is massive grey?

It's not murder it's population control. It's not a lie it's bending the truth. It's not lust it's admiring someone's appearance. I'm not saying that we'll ever be perfect as long as we're alive. The differnce between a Christian and an unbeliever is that a Christian acknowledges they have these deficiencies in their life, and strive to correct them, while realizing that they can't and are in need of a savior to pay the price.

A non Christian excuses them away and allows them to gain a foothold in their life, but as society crumbles around them, their standards become more and more corrupt, until they're left in a totally sinful state.

You see Carl I'm not a good person. I realize that because I know the desires of my heart. I know that I lie, I've stolen, I take the occassional glance, and allow my mind to stray, and I know that it's wrong. When compared to Manson, Bundy, Bin Laden... I'm great, but I'm not so great when compared with God's law.

The question is who's scales are you using? Who's standards do you go by? If you use God's standards then none of us are good people. If you use the standards that society has given us than yes 90% of us are great. But the question everyone should be asking themselves is "Who's standard will God use?" Will God judge us by our laws or His?

I do not think I am great - but I know I am not bad. I am imperfect - that is for sure - yet my friends and family seem to love and accept me. The God you describe does not sound very nice to me at all. And the tone I read from your last line - strikes me as the usual fear tactics... convert or else.

I disagree with that premise entirely. My experience in life is that Christians have no monopoly on trying to correct their deficiencies. If anything, one might say they simply praise God for his Grace. I don't believe you can lump "non-believers" any more than you can lump Christians - but the non-believers I know don't excuse away their mistakes and faults - most of them try to correct themselves and better themselves - for their own sense of self worth and personal and societal responsibility.

It's interesting that you fundamentally don't believe you are a good person. Is that what your religion teaches you? Did your parents teach you that you are not a good person too? I suppose if my parents and my teachers and role models all told me, starting at an early age,that I was not a good person - I might actually come to believe that, and then feel no option but to turn to a "higher power".
I cannot say that I was taught outright that I am a good person, but this is the message I felt conveyed in countless ways growing up. My parents instilled in me that I had the ability to make good and thoughtful choices when I put my mind to it. Perhaps it is this inner security or trust in myself that makes me feel no need for your religion. Unlike you, I do believe that fundamentally I am good. Imperfect, but good. I can't imagine what it must feel like to feel that you are fundamentally not good.

The arguement has been made that we were made imperfectly, but the truth is that we were made perfectly, but by our own choice allowed imperfection into our daily existence.

But God must have known in advance what choice we would make? He must have known we would choose to be 'sinners'?

So why did he declare his creation to be good, then some time later decide it was bad after all and needed to be destroyed?