I am very open minded.

If Jesus were to come back and visit people, show me the holes as Believer says, I'd welcome him.

You are free to believe in whatever superstition you want to and I respect your opinions.

But I can be critical in a discussion forum, especially when my belief is that Christianity is a fraudulent faith.

Good question. The big deal is this. According to Jewish custom EVERYONE is born with sin. This sin is what separates us from God, since God is perfect and cannot have sin near him. Think of it like two like poles of a magnet, they constantly repel.

In order to cover this sin the Jews needed to sacrifice an animal to pay the sin debt. When Jesus died on the cross he took this sin upon Himself, cancelling out the whole repelling of sin from God. In effect He became what He most hates. This was done as the sacrifice once and for all so that no more animal sacrifice would need to be done.

This was promissed by God in the OT where He repeatedly tells the Nation of Israel that He would provide the perfect sacrifice for the attonement of sins. So while He knew that He would resurrect, He also knew that he would have to accept all the evil that He hates. That mixed with the particularly cruel way that He died and suffered, makes the Gospel what it is.

God loved us soo much that He became what He most dispises and suffered in our place.

Yes, me too.

According to the Bible, even the great St Paul was not a believer until Jesus appeared to him in a vision. Yet we are expected to just believe, without the benefit of the visions, miracles etc that were required to convert the greatest of saints?

Jesus, if you're listening, a quick two-minute miraculous vision is all it would take to convert me. Why do you leave me in darkness?

I still don't really get the "becoming what He despises" argument. I imagine that being crucified is unpleasant, but so is plunging to your death while on a charter bus or being thrown to your death in a tornado. There are lots of grim ways to die. And if you were God, you probably could figure out a way to make it just a bit more bearable - but that being aside -
I just don't get the premise, as Believer states:
"When Jesus died on the cross he took this sin upon Himself, cancelling out the whole repelling of sin from God. In effect He became what He most hates."

I don't get it. I think you have to be a Christian to either get it, or just accept it without getting it. I'm neither. Just a lowly agnostic of limited understanding.

It's called "willing suspension of disbelief."

It's how science fiction writers can write their fantastic stories and people still like them.

Christianity is really about the willing suspension of disbelief also.

I'm a Christian and I don't get that line about becomingwhat he hates most? I think that Jesus on Earth was very Human even he on the cross cried out to his father. So it was a sacrifice.

Even if he was completely and utterly aware that he was Divine..if you knew you were for example: so everyone would hate you and curse you and torture you slowly to death..um thats not a sacrifice to you wow , somehow i still would not sign up for something like that so blase as you make it sound even knowing that when it was over i'd be immortal.

Well, if you take the argument that God cannot bear to be in the presence of sin, yet, as Jesus, he took on all the sins of the entire world for all time, I think that that would count as becoming what he despised most ~ a sin-bearer.

[qb]I think that Jesus on Earth was very Human even he on the cross cried out to his father. So it was a sacrifice.[/qb]

Yes, if someone dies to atone for sin, I think that that would count as sacrifice, but how does it work when 'God' sacrifices himself, to himself, to atone for the sins of mankind ~ mankind created by God, in the image of God?
Why would something created entirely by God be sinful in the first place, especialy if it were made in the image of God?
How can God atone for the sins of his own creation by sacrfificing himself to himself?
Why would 'he' decide to walk amongst man and have himself killed?
To start a new religion???

[qb]if he was completely and utterly aware that he was Divine..if you knew you were for example: so everyone would hate you and curse you and torture you slowly to death..um thats not a sacrifice to you wow, somehow i still would not sign up for something like that so blase as you make it sound even knowing that when it was over i'd be immortal.[/qb]

I don't think that anyone would doubt the horror of crucifixion, but, sometimes, people forget that lots of supposed criminals and insurrectionists were crucified, so the death of Jesus would not, necessarily, have stood out, paticularly, to those watching. There was much anti-Roman activity going on in that area, at that time.

Whether Jesus was God or man, he, like others crucified, or tortured in other ways, would have suffered immensely.
But, if he was God, why did he ask God: 'Why have you forsaken me?'


Out of the list I gave, what do you think Christian believe / should believe?

Ok I still cannot quote. It either grabs the whole thing or nothing. But I wil try to comment in my simple way:

"Yes, if someone dies to atone for sin, I think that that would count as sacrifice, but how does it work when 'God' sacrifices himself, to himself, to atone for the sins of mankind ~ mankind created by God, in the image of God?
Why would something created entirely by God be sinful in the first place, especialy if it were made in the image of God?
How can God atone for the sins of his own creation by sacrfificing himself to himself?
Why would 'he' decide to walk amongst man and have himself killed?
To start a new religion???"

That is one of the hardest things to understand even for people who believe. There is a Trinity they are one but seperate. This is one thing that really distinguishes us by faith, you can't scientifically explain it, it's hard for us to because it is so intangible.
So with that said, God sent us his Son (seperate) to live among us, when he was a teacher of God's love and moral life etc but truly didn't know what was waiting for him, the crucifixion. That's why he asked" about being forsaken".

"I don't think that anyone would doubt the horror of crucifixion, but, sometimes, people forget that lots of supposed criminals and insurrectionists were crucified, so the death of Jesus would not, necessarily, have stood out, paticularly, to those watching. There was much anti-Roman activity going on in that area, at that time."

Ok this one is easier, he stood out (and of course maybe not to all, because as you said many crucifixion was a usual punishment and like any time you would have found innnocent people killed because they where in the way of politictions ect.)
But def. he stood out to his many followers and he was nailed to the cross as well not so usuall most where tied. if you want a visual of hey look at that man compared to the others beside him.Also Pilate asked him and tried togive him a chance cos' he even seemed to doubt his crimes asking him are u saying ur the King? He told him not in your Kingdom here on Earth. But mostly he stood out cos' no one else was ressurected.

God doesn't expect us not to sin, that makes no sense but he wants us to choose not to sin, and when we do to repent and he grants forgiveness because he loves us.

That's why I think no one who lives a good life will be sent to hell. He forgives and wants us to be forgiving too. I've tried it's actually not so easy sometimes.

Hhmm..

This is where I start asking ~ as I usually do ~ how do you know?

'.. he stood out to his many followers ..'

'.. he was nailed to the cross ..'

'.. Pilate .. tried to give him a chance .. ' [Coco's Mama ]

How do you know?

Certainly, one gets the impression that he stood out to his many followers, but there is no absolute proof that Jesus even existed, so we certainly don't have proof of anything that he did.

James Tabor ('The Jesus Dynasty') believes that he existed, but that he was an earthly leader; not God / Son of God. This seems likely. He cites reasonable evidence. I still don't think that he has proof, but he rejects the Jesus didn't exist idea.
And remember, there were other potential Messiahs, who also had their followers.

Jesus may have been crucified, but there is not even proof of this. The stories imply that he was an insurrectionist, so he probably would have been crucified, if that is the case.
Did Pilate try to save him?
The evidence available about Pilate indicates that he wasn't a merciful person, so it's unlikely.

Was Jesus nailed to the cross or tied to the cross? Who knows? Either is a possibility. Archaeologists have found a heel bone nailed to a piece of wood, I believe, so it seems that this did happen to crucified men.

This thread was meant to be about what Christian people are supposed to believe.

How much of this is it necessary to believe to be a Christian?

Do you think that all Christians should believe that 'God doesn't expect us not to sin .. but he wants us to choose not to sin, and when we do to repent and he grants forgiveness because he loves us'?

Not all seem to believe all of this.

At least one person on here, whom I believe considers himself Christian, doesn't even seem to think that 'he' loves us.

When you say 'when we do repent he grants forgiveness because he loves us' .. 'I think no one who lives a good life will be sent to hell', I assume that this does does not just apply to Christians, because you say 'no-one'?
Do you really think that it means everyone?
A lot of Christians think that one has to repent and be a committed Christian.

It does seem that Christians have their own interpretation of what it means to be a Christian.

Is that how it should be?

Shouldn't there be some basic rules about what it is to be a Christian and what Christians should believe?

Or should everyone just find their own way and call themselves whatever sounds right to them?

I rather feel that if I called myself 'Christian', there would be certain expectations.

Is that how it should be?

I see what you are asking but Christianity encompasses more than one religion. But from my understanding the basic rule is Christians are to be baptized which frees us from original sin.

For the particulars you would really have to ask a priest or some with a degree in theology and such studies, it is very complicated , but yes there are some basics or it would not be an organized religion. And yes Christians disagree on some or all points often why? How? Because we are like non-christians - just human.

I don'y think you will find an answer not in the way you seek it beacuase that is where again I have to use the word Faith. Believeing in things that cannot be scientifically proven etc. The mysteries for example. That's what a big part of Christianity is Faith. I certainly cannot answer all the things you need to be a Christian because I am no expert in theology . There are expectations but depending on what type of Christian you are they change.

On a personal note I believe God loves us (all not just Christians) How can a God that made us in his image out of love send someone to hell because they don't worship him? It makes no sense to me , there are parts of the world with people who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus (ie: A small remote tribe cut off from ther rest of us) How can a loving god condemn them for being illiterate or unaware that is ridiculious. Really no one can answer who goes to heaven or not except God, we Christians or any other religion in my opinion would have to be awfully presumptuous to say we knew the answer for that. This much I believe.

Sorry I cannot give you the answers you are looking for all I have is my own opinion and interpretation of something way bigger than my brain can understand, just my faith to go on.