Is Israel's bombardment of Lebanon proportionate?

Terrorism must be condemned, but should ordinary civilians - especially children - be paying the price with their lives?

This issue was discussed on BBC's 'Any Questions?' today ~ with a follow-up on 'Any Answers?'

You can 'listen again'~
Website here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/anyquestions.shtml

Won't this bombing of Lebanese villages, by Israel, just result in an escalation of terrorism throughout the world?

Having been treated so badly by Nazi Germany in World War Two, shouldn't Jews have some compassion for other innocents?

Should The UK & the USA be making a stand against this? Officially, they seem to be condoning it yet, in the UK at least, there is a general outcry against it.

Won't certain Islamic extremist terrorist groups now see this as a Judaeo-Christian Alliance, which is fair game for their terrorist activities?

Was it a huge mistake to 're-invent' Istrael in 1947?

Isn't this the cause of much of the strife in the Middle East and the cause of much of the Islamic terrorism in the world today?


General info on 1947 'partition', from Wikipedia, here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

This kind of tribal savagery is par for the course in the Middle East, Central Africa, the Caucasus and the Balkans.

The only difference here is that the western press actually gives a damn when it happens in the levant.

Probably because the US has chosen sides in this particular vendetta and pours billions of dollars into helping tribe A annihilate tribe B.

When violent tribesmen want to hack each other to bits, I say let them. As long as they do it far away from me, it will ultimately cleanse the human gene pool of their propensity to aggression.

However, taking sides in intractable Levantine blood feuds is an exercise in stupidity.

i thought about starting a thread on this but decided against it, but since we're here now...

i've been sickened at the disproportionate violence once again perpretated by israel on its neighbours, but more angered at the west's lack of action. western governments pulled their citizens out as fast as possible, to give israel a carte blanche bombing those who remain. even now rice and bush are talking about finding 'permament solutions', and in the meantime seem happy enough to see innocent civilians slaughtered. on the face of it, it is stupid to take sides in such feuds, but the west have made a calculated decision and obviously feel that the end justifies the means, no matter what happens to anyone along the way.

the only reason israel is able to act with such ferocity is the massive backing it receives from the usa. this backing continues as the american administration are bolstering their only ally in the area, and protecting their own interests in the region. so while un officials are talking crimes against humanity, the uk and usa are still blathering on about stemming the threat of terrorism, rather than giving israel the criticism it desrves.

without this backing i don't think israel would possibly even exist anymore - many of their neighbours would like to see them gone. while i don't want to see anyone displaced, or be told they no longer have the right to live somewhere, i don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that without western inteference, israel would have been put in its place in some form or other by now and the region probably more stable for it, events having run their natural course.

everybody deserves to have a decent life somewhere. the trouble seems to me that israel feel they deserve it at any cost to anyone else. the way israel first came to form in 1947 was a huge diplomatic blunder, and the lack of foresight shown by the international community is the root of much of the middle east question. interesting to note that all of the local states who voted on the 1947 partition resolution voted against it:

map

you'll never get workable politics if you impose the will of external powers and disregard local opinion, which is what happened in 1947.

i have often said that of all the people in the world the jews should know better than to perpretrate such opression. as for terrorism - i have the feeling there will be a sharp increase in terrorist activity as a direct result of this. if you really want to fight terrorism then you have to start by addressing people's grievances and acting fairly.

Whose local opinion, though?

The Jews? or the Arabs?

The Hutus? or the Tutsis?

The Serbs? or the Albanians?

The Prods? or the Fenians?

The Chechens? or the Russians?

Rival tribes have been hacking each other to bits for time immemorial, long before there were Yanks or Brits or Russkies to butt their noses into things.

It's just a human sport. We're basically just monkeys, after all.

fair point, but surely the fact that every local un country voted against the resolution should have rung some alarm bells, shouldn't it?

'we're the monkeys with technology,
barely out of the caves and the trees..'

from 'vanity' by new model army

Well, I've been wary for a while, but it's in all the papers, now, and being discussed in Parliament and on chat shows, so I thought it right to add here.

I also thought that we should get a feel for what real people really think.

As you say, the USA & UK seem to be giving (passive) support, yet when politicians are recorded on 'Any Questions?' or 'Today in Parliament', it seems quite obvious that most think that, while terrorism is extremely evil, Israel's behaviour here is truly disproportionate, and killing and maiming children ~ children make up a huge proportion of the casualties, I understand ~ is disgraceful.

I have to say that, while I condemn terrorism absolutely & completely, I can actually understand the Palestinian dismay at Israel's presence, especially as Israel has the upper hand.

Were we right to reinstate 'Israel'?

I do think the Israeli response was disproportionately harsh for the events that triggered it. But I would also remind everyone there are 2 sides to the story. The Israelis aren't all wrong. What many people forget is that there are Arabs who did chose to stay within Israel and be part of the country and government. In 2005 approximately 20% of Israel's population was Arab (this does not include Gaza or the Palestinian areas.) Israel recognized from the beginning that it would be sharing the country with Arabs and included that in its Declaration of Independence:

"(The State of Israel), will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.................We appeal, in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

There are Arabs in the Israeli government in the positions of deputy ministers, there is an Arab Supreme Court Justice, as well as Arab diplomats and Ambassordors representing Israel. I think it is important to remember during this time of Islam vs Jew, and Arab nations against Israel--that there are Arabs who assimilated in Israel while retaining their religion and identity.

And as if life isn't complicated enough for the Palestinian refugees--lets not forget that even Arab countries with refugee camps have not been remarkably helpful to the refugees, many will not allow the Palestinians to leave the camps and the Arab league issued instructions against allowing Arab countries to grant them citizenship. Jordan is the only country which in the past gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees. There are approximately 1/2 million Palestinians in Saudi Arabia and they are not allowed to apply for Saudi citizenship. There are over 50 different job catagories including
medicine, law and enginering that the Lebanese government will not allow Palestinians to hold jobs.They cannot own property or use the Lebanese healthcare system. In June 2005, the government of Lebanon did removed work restrictions from Lebanese-born Palestinians, which allows them to apply for work permits and work in the private sector. The reason for all of this is to help the Palestinians maintain thier identity and protect thier rights to return to thier homeland--a homeland that in essence not longer exists.

Before we spend alot of time castigating the West for what it does and does not do for the Palestinians--take a good hard look at what other Arab nations use the camps for. As far as I can tell the Arabs want the camps to remain as breeding grounds for terrorists.

As I said early there are 2 sides to every story and I am not convinced either side in this issue has any true concern for those who are being hurt the most--the Palestinian Refugees.
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i don't think its about what the west is not doing for the arabs, its that the west is allowing massive acts of violence to go by.

no amount of history excuses the actions of israel, now or in the recent past. i think the arab population inside israel is irrelevant to this question, as its about territory rather than ethnicity. sure, the palestinian refugees are having a terrible time, but they aren't the ones being blown up, are they? it's a shame that in its declaration of independence israel didn't extend the same courtesies to its neighbours as well as those who found themselves inside their country, like it or not.

as for breeding grounds fopr terrorists - are you telling me that you think it's reasonable to bomb a village because of rumors of members of its community engaging in terrorism - coz thas whats going on here. if the uk had taken the same approach with the ira, the whole of ireland would be smoking ruins. infact, israels actions are perfect incubation conditions for terrorism; don't forget that terrorism is a reactionary response to opression.

No, I said at the beginning of the post--what Israel is doing is way beyond a disproportionate response. What they are doing will only make the situation worse on everyone.

I am saying the Arab nations need to take some responsibility for what is happening--and instead of using the camps to breed terrorist, and allowing Hezbollah free reign in Lebanon, and providing Hamas with enough funds to seem like a savior to the Palestinian people.--the Arab nations could be allowing the refugees a place in thier countries and try helping to heal wound rather than peeling off the scab every year or so to make sure it never heals.

Well I have a feeling that this comment will get me a lot of flack... but since I have not much concern for politics, or any desire to debate about it, I Will jsut put it out there.

The middle east has been at odds and fighting for land since Joshua marched around Jerico, and took the city. The land became isreal...and was still fought over at that time.The "Mistake" of Abraham having a child by his Hand Maden, and then ahving a son by his wife didn't help matters, and to this day his mistake is casing problems. That's right... ONE mistake by that man has caused ALL of this mess to continue. The Decendants of the Child of the Hand Maden (Ismael) (the Arabs) Believe that as First Born They should get the land and it is thiers.
The Children of Abes wife Sara (Issac) (the Jews) Believe that the land should be thiers becasuse Aberaham give it to him as his true Heir.

(and God Promised that land to the Jews, but since a lot of people here will not take the bible and God into view, I will leave it at acctual geneolgies)

Since that time, the land has been fueding over who it belongs to. The Arabs (childen of Ishmael) or The Jews (children of Issac)

They have been at it for thousands of years, and if you believe the Bible, it will not stop until the end of time. SO... after wacthing them go at it for thousands of years..... WHY ARE WE SO CONCENRED NOW?
this has happened since almost the begining of time, adn will mostlikey harbor bad blood tell the end of time.... there is nothing we can do to convince them that both are right, and they they should get along. it is not going to happen!

They are at odds for thousands of years, and just becasue we all have bigger gus and bigger "peace talks", it doesn't mean that any of this is going to stop. this is just one of the thousands (or hundred of thousands) of conflicts that have happened, and not the last one. We shouldn't get so worked up about who to balme, who can we yell at, what leader is at fault, and who can we bash for this.
I am saddened by the losses of people over there.... but honestly... I am more saddened that there are millions of people in Africa starving to death, dying of AIDS, People in Peru murdering thier wifes for buring dinner (yes that is happening!)
I feel that if we took all of this attention and focused it all on some of the other major issues out there, we could solve a whole lot more problems, than to sit around and wacth a anciet fued and debate over it. W can put out time to better use in our OWN counrty, and out OWN neighboorhood. People are suffering, Dying, and gonig thryu abuse right here in our own communties, and we are so concerned over a centruies old fight that we ignore the helpless people here in our own towns.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but it just gets to be crazy about how much we sit and debate over issues on fourms, insted of going out and acctually vonlenteering our time to help out people in our own neighboor hoods. We would be a better country if we leanred to debate about the care of our hundreds of thousands of citizens here in the US (or UK for some) that are being mistreated, than the few hundered in a country that has been at war for thousands and thousdans of years......

Sorry if this offends anyone... I just wanted to stae my opnion.