Israel may have Arab parlamentarians and so on, but this is basically nothing more than tokenism. It’s good PR and it makes the western press think you’re civilized. But make no mistake, Israel was not set up to be a non-racial, secular state. It was set up to be a homeland for Jews: i.e. an ethnically exclusive state. It can tolerate minorities in its midst as long as these are small and keep quiet, so a handful of Greeks, Armenians, Druze and even some token Arabs are ok, but there is not an ice cube’s chance in hell that Israel is going to be able (or willing) to absorb all the Arab population of the occupied territories. In that scenario, Israel would be swamped and its status as a Jewish homeland compromised. At the same time, Israel has made it clear that they have no intention to stop building settlements or return to the 1967 borders. It’s unlikely that an independent Palestinian state in pre-1967 borders would be viable, anyway. Which leaves only one option: ghetto rules. Ethnic cleansing. And make no mistake, that’s exactly what they’ve been doing since 1967 (at least). They are smart enough not to go down the same path as Milosevic, so they do it slowly and carefully and hiring lots of PR agencies. Bulldoze a village here, build a new settlement there. Every time the Palestinians kill one of your guys, you go kill 10 of theirs and send their relatives into exile and then claim it was self-defence. A slow war of attrition whose objective is very clear: to remove the Palestinians from Israeli controlled territory either by killing them, forcing them into exile, or confining them to native reservations. Mind you, the Palestinians would ethnically cleanse the Jews in a heartbeat if given half the chance, but they are too weak. The Israelis have the upper hand for the moment. That might change, however. Demographics favour the Palestinians in the long term: they have a higher birth rate. Also, Israel’s main ally and sponsor, the US, is declining as a world power and it’s unlikely that any emerging power like China or Russia will take the same interest in Israel that the US did. The pressure is building and building. Therefore, this conflict is about to escalate big time. Unfortunately, this will only get worse until one of the warring tribes is exterminated. Tribal warfare 101, folks. There are no good guys over there.

I agree that there have been problems in the Middle East for a long time.

Now, though, we are more aware, because of the media.

Also, we are involved.
It's not as if it is nothing to do with 'us'. I don't know enough about the details, but my understanding is that Britain re-invented the state of Israel and simply put it there, artificially, regardless of the wishes of the inhabitants ~ and now America backs Israel.

So, while I agree that we should indeed be concerned about the welfare of our own people, and those in other countries, I don't think that we can ignore what Israel is doing and what we have done to 'help'.

The religious issues are interesting ~ I have set up a new thread on this, in the 'Religious Research' area:

Topic: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000550

Bang on! Al Wackos just threw their hat into the ring within that past 24 hours. I can't tell you the number of times I've yelled at the newspaper, radio, computer screen, cell phone news service, and telivision the past two weeks "Just stop it!" There you go - it's now a 'global issue' because A.Q. says so. Who died and made them the litmus test of rational thinking and having the World's Best Interests at heart? Oy! Doh!

In my opinion? Not necessarily. That's like saying - because Native Americans were treated so badly in the US - shouldn't they have had a greater compassion for the Japanese that were interned during WWII . . . when you are faced within 'your mind' your own survival - you'll throw anyone under the bus you feel threatens you.

For the US - nope. I can't speak for the UK - but I can speak as just ONE single American. No - it will drain us financially and ONCE again - we'll be the big bad guys who do nothing but evil in the world. Aside from that, we simply can't afford it. Give aid to the displaced - yes. But get involved in another stupid war? No.

And we have an extremely conservative news media here in the US - that isn't showing how American's feel about this. It might hurt Dubya's feelings too much to see what people are saying about him not stating clearly and precisely that this is 'none of our business'.

Then again, I want our troops pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq yesterday and positioned at the Mexico border so - go figure!

Hmm . . . That could actually work for those of us in America that don't want to see us get involved in this mess. Personally? I want Condi Rice to shut up and bring her behind home. It's not our fight. We have bigger fish to fry than this stupidity. It's over the top - on BOTH sides and needs to end. If Hezbollah and Israel want to annihilate each other - do it with their own people. No one else's.

Yes - it most likely was a mistake to re-invent Israel in 1947. Again, a bit why I don't think the US should be involved. We've been cleaning up the remnants of European Imperialism and Colonialism for far too long. OFTEN - I'm going to admit this - for our OWN benefit.

It's always branded as 'tribalism' that's ancient. But if this really started/escalated in 1947 - then it was manufactured.

Someone else threw Rwanda in the same league as the conflict between Lebanon and Israel . . . disagree. Again, European - specifically - BELGIAN colonialism was the cause of that.

Prior to the close of WW I - the Hutu, Tutsis and Twa lived in relative peace. The Belgiums decided to start measuring noses (literally), the width of jaws (literally) the slope of foreheads (literally) and basing the level of being 'human' on lighter skin as opposed to darker skin. They exalt the Tutsis while treating them as 'house negroes'; the Tutsis for their OWN survival take it on the chin. Then the Belgians pull out abruptly in the 1950s (late).

There you have it - something manufactured by Europe blows up 46 years later into a horrific genocide.

Now lets talk about where one American thinks American time and attention would be better spent? Darfur anyone? Working with the Mexican government to have them take a good hard look at themselves and how they treat their Central American illegal immigrants - before they condemn us. And working with our neighbor to the North to learn as much as we can from them about keeping our water fresh and air clean.


No no no. I don't want my country in this. I'm watching CNN right now and there is a Physician in Middle East being interviewed and he's saying that American and Israel are in this together.

I don't care what they do as long as neither side turns their guns on American children - OR - if A.Q. does. Any of those three do that? We Trumanize. But until then - As Gaylord Focker said of himself in Meet the Fockers . . ."Focker Out!"

America. Out.

yes, absolutely. i rail against racism because i have been at the receiving end.

so when you've closed the mexican border, who will come and work on your farms and clean your toilets? unless of course you want to put the army there to cut down the rednecks who are using illegal immigrants for target practise. before you get sanctimonious about your borders, remember how you guys came by your country in the first place. invasion murder genocide and theft. and now you whinge about migrants from central america? get some perspective!!

i have a better idea - bring the troops home from the middle east, send them to washington and get a military coup on the go. it can only improve your government.

dream on. far from cleaning up the remnants of imperialism, the usa is a remnant of imperialism, and it is trying to revive its own version in its neo imperialism. i agree that it is for their own benefit, i just don't think there is any cleaning up involved. its pure self interest. the usa does not get involved unless it has a vested interest, in this case their only ally in the most oil rich region of the world. as long as the money flows they do not care who get annihilated along the way.

you cannot view america as seperate from european imperialism as it only emerged from the very same a couple of hundred years ago or so. forgive me i forget when the declaration was signed. i agree that the situation was artificially escalated in 47 - don't forget that the usa was one of the countries which voted in favour of partition. i also agree that the region has been a collection of warriong tribes since time immemorial, but look - europe only stopped being like that 50-60 years ago, so why shouldn't the middle east be able to be stabilized? not that it ever will while the west takes it upon itself to decide the fate of every nation from moroco to pakistan.

See also:
Topic: Believer 101 (A look into the mindset of a believer)
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/u...amp;p=39#000572

Originally posted by janimal:
First - Mexicans have an unfair advantage over women in Afhganistan, blacks from the Sudan, Central Americans living in truly dangerous situations, and Chinese people who wish to leave Communism. It's called LEVELING the Playing Field. It's called Affirmative Action in immigration. Some woman in China can't swim the South Pacific and walk into L.A. like she owns the place. Ditto a man from Pakistan (albeit some walking and a swim across the Atlantic).

First part B- I'm not whining about immigrants from Central America. I'm not whining at all. I just want the laws to be upheld. We have laws here. If everyone BUT the ten million Americans in this country here illegaly want the laws upheld - then in a Democracy (not sure if you are familiar with its' nature) the majority favor for an EXISTING law must prevail. Just because King George says it should be overturned and those who broke the law given amnesty from BREAKING a law - doesn't make it so. Let a white guy break the speeding limit by 5 mph and see if King George comes to HIS defense. Not gonna happen.

First part C - Let me understand this . . . you say you have experienced racism/oppression - yet it's ONLY bad when American's do it. So Mexico is off the hook? Mexico can treat someone from El Salvador as a sub-human - accuse me of doing the same thing because I want laws upheld in my country - but I'm whining when I point out that Mexico needs to turn the mirror on itself.

With all due respect - that's bananas!

Second - if the former President there . . .Fox - is an indication of the people of Mexico (and I understand he was well-loved) then as a person who walks around this country as a descendent of slaves . . . I'm a little - no - more than a little fearful - of that level of bigotry being allowed into our country.

And janimal - if you are familiar with the American/Mexico Illegal immigration issue - you know darn well that man hates, looks down on and could care less if they 'starve' *insert derogatory and inflammatory racist word her* 's. Just because he didn't 'say' it out loud - doesn't mean he doesn't say it when in his inner league. Probably when they are sitting around laughing at black face caricatures on Mexican television. (And you know DARN well that's high humor in Mexico . . . don't even try to deny it. I was in Cancun two years ago and saw it myself. So don't lie to me about the Mexican 'view' of people of African descent. We are n-----rs to them.)

That said - if ALL Americans are to be dismissed as 'losers' who 'rape the universe' based on Dummya's actions and a few Dead White Men from the 1600's and 1700's . . . Americans (be they black, white, etc. etc.) have the right to look at a few people's actions/words towards us over the years and present (Palestinians cheering in the streets when the World Trade Center fell to the ground with one of my best friend's in it anyone?) throughout the world and condemn entire countries. Turn about is fair play.

BTW - I wasn't alive when any of *that* happened. I descend from Cherokee Indians. Seminole Indians (never signed a treaty with the US Government). Slaves. German Jews who came here in the mid 1930's to avoid being murdered. A French man who came here in 1918. . . and one Anglican Irishman that was burned out of his home in the early 1700's Settled in VA and never owned a slave. His son ran from the Civil War (he was a physician) after Antietam. He deserted from that sheer utter stupidity.

So I'm not taking ownership for that stealing, plundering and being thieves. Tell that to some WASP in Idaho but it's not gonna fly with me.

Third - here's a better idea to get those toilets cleaned . . . not that it matters to you because you aren't an American - but - perhaps we could and we SHOULD raise our Federal Minimum wage to $13 an hour. That to me seems like a great idea! Pay a man/woman a wage of some level of dignity and they'll do at times what is an undignified job.

Not sure where you are from - but that doesn't benefit me. It benefits everyone who wants to see Americans killing each other, in poverty, starving . . . it benefits EVERYONE who wants to BREAK democray. Everyone who hates us for what are NOW our LIMITED freedoms as based on the Patriot Act. Everyone who hates us infidels would love that.

Why should we make those who hate us happy? I say living well, peacefully, in prosperity is our best revenge.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the American Political Process - but a change is coming my friend. We Dems are gonna push, pull and create the 'coup' of which you speak this November. When we smash the party of Guns, God, and Gays and replace them with party which preaches Peace, Privacy and Prosperity. Just by pulling a lever. A little tiny, isty bitsy lever.

We'll really 'overthrow' when we get good solid Liberal Democrats (who harken back to those DWM's your railed against) in office who will repeal The Patriot Act, bring our troops home, raise taxes to erase our national debt to every single country in the world (hence why Dummya hates American People but kisses Fox's and Saudia Arabias' butts every chance he gets), create jobs and stimulate the economy.

And don't tell me we don't prosper when the party of Peace, Privacy and Prosperity is in office. We did for 8 years in the 1990's.


Touche my friend re: dreaming on. Since you talk about America's own benefit. . . . how do you explain France and Holland during the American Revolution. BTW - the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776 . . . our government was not recognized by ANYONE in Europe until several years later. Anything before 1776 cannot be blamed on present day Americans . . . blame it on the British, French and Spain. And those DWM's that 'made it in this country' - they really DID come here for religious freedom from the Crown. Until World War II - when the rest of the world thought we were a bunch of candy you-know-what wimps . . . and Japan was just dumb enough to step on a rattlesnake's tail . . . we never received any kind of respect. We took on a 'leadership' (rolls eyes and drips in sarcasm) role, and really - what's been in it for us? At the end of the day . . . nothing but an intense dislike for the average working Jane and Joe in everyday America.

Then we get involved - and for Crise' Sakes! The Spanish Inquisition was our fault. When witches were burned at the stake in Europe - it was our fault. When the Huns pillaged? Our fault. The War of the Roses? Our fault. The Crusades? Our fault. Nero - he was an American. I'm just waiting for the day some whack job and half blames the crucifixion of Jesus on us. I just KNOW it's coming! LOL! Do you want me to continue? Because I love the way history is being re-written. Let me know when the book gets published! I'd love to read it! ROTFL

Heck! We couldn't have had slavery with out Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and British folks willing to ply the trade. But here I am - the descendant of slaves and it's my fault. Who'da thunk it. Go figure. My dad's parents are probably rolling over in their graves at the idea that they should have to apologize for and take OWNERSHIP for what was perpetrated against their grandparents.


I've so many thoughts on these statements. I have not forgotten it . . . I love and worship at the altars of Truman and Roosevelt.

Not only did Truman go along with the formation of the state of Israel - he shot himself in the foot for it politically (this country was and remains highly anti-semitic at a simmering under the surface level - hence why we turned away the Spirit of St. Louis). He also (I'm going to beat you to the punch on this) ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

RIGHT after the bombing of Japan - he desegrated our military (thanking blacks and other minorities who gave their lives when they couldn't even vote in this country), went to astump speech in in the deep South and told the Dixiecrats if you're going to be racist - you can't be Democrats, and said, "Yes we bombed them. And now we're even."

Every single person in history has a yin and yang. From a world approach - he was wrong for Israel and Japan.

From a daughter of a former armey officer who is black male, raised in the deep South under oppression you can't even begin to comprehend unless you TOO are a black American male who was raised under the Jim Crow Laws . . . he was really cool guy. He was one of the good ones.

Which then makes me trail off onto the last statement re: the Mid-East can't be stabiliized until . . .

So wait - damned if we do and damned if we don't again.

Janimal - you might not like this. .. but you are an American Democrat. A far left one. But I've learned (as left as I lean) that if you go too far left you end up in chaos and oppression.

You just made my point.

We have NO BUSINESS being there. It's a waste of money, time, human lives. The Islamic extremists are going to continue their war on the Iraqi people as long as the US maintains it's presence there. They are dying by the thousands. And whether we stay there or come INTO Lebanon - we don't help matters. People are dying just because American Soldiers have a presence in their country. I say - when the Iraqis want Democracy - they'll die for it . . . on their OWN terms. When the people of Lebanon and Israel figure it out - they'll figure it out on their OWN terms.

I think it's very clear from reading a variety of your posts - not just this one - that you represent the general world view of the average American.

Forgive me but, "I'm just a middle class bi-racial woman trying to make it in Bridgewater NJ." LOL! That means nothing to you - and a lot of people in the world. I'm the face of evil in this world.

I'm the face of evil because I don't want a coup. I don't want to live like DR Congo or any other nation in this world that every day a Political leader dies so someone else can be in charge. I like the fact with Close Control over our Elections (and I mean CLOSE) I can create a 'coup' just by going into the voting booth and pulling a lever. I can vote against those who want to deploy our military in battles that are not our own, who wish to decimate the Constitution/Bill of Rights and play RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HATE AMERICANS, and who won't uphold the laws on the books in our hand (Immigration and whatnot).

I'm the face of evil because according to many fundamentalist practitioners of Islam in the Middle East - I'm an American Woman Whore.

I'm the face of evil because I grew up in a home where my parents worked hard, asked no one for any handouts, took care of their own, prayed to a Christian View of God at dinner each night, had a bike and barbie dolls.

I'm the face of evil because some Dead White Men came here in the 1600's.

I'm the face of evil.

Maybe if America retreats - the world won't have us to kick around anymore.

janimal - I believe that 2006 and 2008 are going to be huge events. We're fed up over/up (not sure what neck of the woods you are in) here.

Finally - I noticed you didn't disagree about Rwanda. Hey! I give to a great organization called Rwanda Partners. You should look it up! It's a great way to privately give to people that unless you are from there . . . I'm sure you are just as ashamed as I am (based on the fact that you've experienced racism yourself) that your country did nothing while close to one million people were murdered because they were 'lighter' skinned blacks.

Y'all take care now! (That's in light of your racist view against white American's living in the South. I've been there on many occasions and the majority of people that live South of the Mason Dixon line and in the 'Bible Belt' are nice, good, kind people that ask for nothing but the chance to raise their families in a nice home, enjoy a glass of sweet tea and enjoy the sunset . . . I bet you janimal - I just bet 'those people' are just like you!)

I basically agree with Lauren & Gus. The events unfolding are not a surprise to most anyone who has read and studied and who believes the New Testament Bible.

In my belief system, we learn that it all began in the middle east (Garden of Eden was located in present day Iraq)... and many believe that it will all end in the Middle East as well. Because of this belief, the turmoil we have seen and are seeing now, while tragic and frightening, is no big surprise.

Israel again becoming a country was prophesied in the Bible, and because of my particular and personal faith, I am very glad that America is standing with Israel. I would not want to be part of a country that did not stand with them just because my belief system understands Israel to be the chosen people of God and warns against anyone who does not stand with them.

Again, as Lauren & Gus said earlier, these words are not said to offend anyone. This is merely my own spiritual/political belief system. And while this is a political forum...like so many in today's world, my political views are shaped by my spiritual faith beliefs. It is difficult to divorce the two ...for me, as it is for many people.

Personally, I think that it could be very dangerous to look at the Middle East question from a Biblical / Religious point of view, but since this is the 'Holy Land', it's not surprising, and I have started a thread on this in the 'Religious Research' section:

Topic: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000550

For all the religious wars there have been, I don't think people ever really fight about religion.

Religion is just the excuse: what you feed the cannon fodder to make them more eager to kill and die, but what underlies all conflicts is always land or resources. That's what it's about.

If you're focussing on whose god promised who what piece of real estate, then you're missing the point.

I just finished reading the inimitable War Nerd's take on the conflict.:

http://www.exile.ru/2006-July-28/a_hezbollah_upon_all_of_thee.html

In a nutshell: demographics. The Shiites who support Hezbollah used to be a small minority in Lebanon, but they are on their way to becoming a dominant majority.

To qoute the article:


Nice summary.

Kind of goes along with my theory that Israel is just a bit player in this, and what they do or don't do doesn't make much difference. We are seeing the beginnings of a new Lebanese civil war.