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#176559 - 05/02/07 01:11 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: Carl]
Carl Offline
Silver Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 5173
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
P.S. Thanks, LL.
_________________________
Marge is the love of my life.

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#176567 - 05/02/07 01:43 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: LordsLady]
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: LordsLady
Yes, my son's drug habit is a choice. Where exactly did I state it wasn't? Why does he choose to live like that? Only he knows. I can sleep at night knowing I did not make that decision for him. I am very happy your father beat drugs. Some people have more strength than others to do so.


You see, that's the problem. It's not a choice any longer. Read up on chemical addiction and dependency.

He has no choice any longer. That's the sad part about drugs.

The more you keep believing it's a choice, the more you keep denying him help.

Help comes from without and within with drugs.

The minute you can let go of the "his choice" fallacy the faster he can get real help.

It is beatable. My father is living proof.

The counselor at the rehab confronted me when I was cocky about it being "his choice" to drink and shoot smack.

He sat me down as asked me point blank - seeing him like this, would YOU make that choice to live like he does?

A person might make a choice to start, but once the chemicals get ahold of you there is no choice. It's an addiction.

The counselor told us that the only way to help my father is to stop believing that he chooses to live like that and start getting him some real help.

One day in the rehab was called "confront day" where all the patients and their families are in a big circle. The patient and one family member sit inside and the family member gets to unleash verbal hell on the patient. All the pent up rage and disappointment and anger and love comes out. Something the family and patient have been denying for so long - in public!

I watched fathers and sons in tears, brothers screaming at brother,sisters to sisters, and me to my father. It was very difficult, but once the barrier was broken the flood gates opened and we actually were able to communicate and show him that his addiction was not his choice any longer. His addiction was destroying everything around him, and if he didn't take this last chance to break it....

Earlier we talked about your hearing from God from all sorts of places.

Perhaps God sent me to tell you about addiction and all of this nonsense bickering about superstition led to this moment - this post - about helping your son. I've never met your sons. I've spoke with "Believer" who I admire very much. If your other son has half the heart of this one he is an incredible boy.

Save him. It's not a choice at this stage.

When I was in college and smoked pot (I did inhale) I used to ponder the cosmos and came to the conclusion that drugs like cocaine, LSD, Cheese, heroin, etc. were the Devil's Communion.

I was lucky, I stopped before the addiction began.

Does it stand to reason that if Satan is the opposite of God, then God's Free Will is contrasted with Satan's lack of will?

If those are terms you can understand, great. But know that there is no more will with chemical dependency.

It's not his choice. No healthy person would make that choice. No healthy person who experienced what he experienced would ever make a choice like that ever again.

Break the addiction. It's not a choice any more.
_________________________
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings

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#176569 - 05/02/07 02:15 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: mbas400]
Joe Bloggs Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 1517
Loc: England
PDM....again, I believe the bible. The bible speaks against homosexuality. The bible says its a sin. I did not come up with that.

But that's what I'm saying. The Old Testament says it is a sin. The Old Testament says lots of other things are sinful, too, but I don't know of any Christians who follow all of the Old Testament's rules.

The ones they don't follow, they conveniently say that 'Jesus has taken away'. But Jesus didn't present an exact list of the things that were no longer sinful and a list of the things that were. So who is to say which ones were taken away and which ones weren't?

So is this not picking and choosing?

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#176583 - 05/02/07 03:07 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: Joe Bloggs]
MrsJF Offline
Long Time Friend

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 756
Loc: Pennsylvania
Ah, I was wondering when homosexuality would come into play here! How come every conversation ends up being about "the gays"? This is so personal for me I'd better stay out of it.
_________________________
MHA bell tolls to end misunderstanding & discrimination & rings for victory over mental illness.

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#176584 - 05/02/07 03:24 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: Joe Bloggs]
LordsLady Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 1926
Loc: Florida
Carl...you are welcome.

Joe....you are correct. We don't follow all the OT or for that matter the NT rules.

mbas....thank you. You are right. I understand that at this point in his life it is no longer a choice. I agree with you that perhaps you were sent to teach me about addiction. I truly believe we are placed on this earth to help one another. Please understand that I mean no disrespect to you and I sincerely thank you for what you stated. But also understand that my son made the initial choice to use drugs. I am glad to hear you respect my other son and I can tell you that I have awesome children. I can also tell you that my son David (the drug user) is one of the sweetest, most loving people you will ever want to meet. Just yesterday we were at the grocery store together and the person in front of us in line to pay did not have enough money to pay his groceries. He was going to leave something behind. My son took money out of his own pocket to pay this man's groceries. I was preoccupied with other things and was unaware that this man was missing money. But I was proud when my son gave him the money. He truly has a kind and loving spirit.

When he first started using, he was already an adult. He started when he was in the USAF. He was past the age of accountability to his father and myself. I understand how drugs work and I know that at this time it is not one of choice. It is an addiction. Please also understand that we are getting him help, but he has to be willing to help himself. We cannot do all the work for him.

It is a daily struggle. He has now been with us again for over five weeks and has been sober that length of time. I don't know how long it will last this time, but I pray that he won't fall again. However, if he should, we will be here to help him. We will never abandon him, even though our other two children (Believer included) have not always been in agreement with the way we handle the situation. They wish we would not take him back. They believe he needs to hit "rock bottom" and perhaps they are correct. No one can say how they will handle a situation until they are placed in that situation. Fish and I have asked our other two children to respect our decisions and to remember how we felt if they are ever confronted with the same situation.

But I do thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. And I also thank God that your dad kicked the habit.

Please know that we are doing all we can to help him.

Blessings,

LL
_________________________
To one with faith,no explanation is needed.To one without faith no explanation is possible. Aquinas

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#176589 - 05/02/07 03:39 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: LordsLady]
LordsLady Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 1926
Loc: Florida
P.S. mbas...you made me cry.

Blessings,

LL
_________________________
To one with faith,no explanation is needed.To one without faith no explanation is possible. Aquinas

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#176593 - 05/02/07 03:57 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: LordsLady]
Carl Offline
Silver Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 5173
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
I cry, also, when I think of the emotional devastation addictions bring to all connected.

I've dealt with addictions, and I've watched sons deal with it.

Fact is, we continue to deal with it.

Mel (MBAS400), that was a powerful post!
_________________________
Marge is the love of my life.

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#176594 - 05/02/07 04:07 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: LordsLady]
Joe Bloggs Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 1517
Loc: England
LL....I hope your son David makes it back onto the straight and narrow too. As Mbas said...once you are in the grip of an addiction, it's very, very difficult to break free. But it can be done. And having the support of a loving family can make all the difference.

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#176596 - 05/02/07 04:19 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: Joe Bloggs]
LordsLady Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 1926
Loc: Florida
You guys, stop it. I will have to spend all day crying. Thanks so much for all you have written. I truly appreciate your support.

Blessings,

LL






_________________________
To one with faith,no explanation is needed.To one without faith no explanation is possible. Aquinas

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#176598 - 05/02/07 04:27 PM Re: ".. because the Bible says so .." [Re: Joe Bloggs]
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3666
Loc: Texas, USA
Quote:
They wish we would not take him back. They believe he needs to hit "rock bottom" and perhaps they are correct. No one can say how they will handle a situation until they are placed in that situation.

Unfortunately for you, your other kids are right.

Right now you are enabling him to keep his addiction.

He really and truly needs to hit bottom.

For my father, I will never forget the day he hit bottom. It was at a family party where he was using all day and got drunk at the party. He had no recollection of the night. He became abusive and I had to physically haul him out of the party and into my car where I took him to the VA hospital. I intended to leave him there, but they wouldn't take him that night because of the alcohol. "Bring him back tomorrow," they said.

He was in and out of treatment programs for years, including VA, but nothing took until the moment of bottom.

I drove him home and left him there. I went to his house the next morning and was amazed at the place where I grew up. It was a death house. Filthy, smelly, dark. My mother had already moved out months before. He was there alone, his mother would bring him food once in a while. He borrowed $20 to get his suit from the cleaners for the party.

That morning we sat together on the bed and I gave him a choice. "Dad, I'm leaving in 15 minutes. You can either come with me and get help, or stay here and die."

He managed to come with me and I told him that he wasn't living with me at my house. I arranged for a welfare apartment, and managed to get him into the rehab clinic. St. Joseph's in Saranac Lake, NY.

Nearly 20 years later, he's still clean. And he's helped countless other addicts deal with it. Most stayed clean, others didn't. It's an incredibly destructive disease. It doesn't start out that way - you're right. At first it's cool, experimentation, a cheap high. But the right genetic code, coupled with some unfilled needs and before you know it, you're hooked.

There is a new drug going around the high schools and middle schools now called Cheese - heroin mixed with tylenol PM. Killing kids left and right. Apparently it only takes three hits to become addicted.

But as you say, you can't do it for him, but you can't continue to enable him either. When he runs out of safe harbors, there is only one place to go - help. Read Dante's Inferno.

For all our discussions of God's tough love towards his creation, it could be time to show some of your own.

At the "confrontation circle" we also had to state clearly what we would do if the person started drinking/drugging again. Most of the people said that their door would be locked and the person can sleep on the street, or go back to jail.

If drugs indeed are Satan's Communion, why let that into your house? Your son is under the control of sinister forces. NOT BY CHOICE.

I'm not qualified to say that I would do it or could do it. It's certainly different doing it to my father than it would be doing it to my son. But I was very clear with my sn that if he ever got arrested for drugs, he would indeed spend the time in jail. No bail. Suffer the consequences.

But if helps you deal with the pain of giving tough love, just remember the pain Jesus felt on the cross for you. You say you follow Jesus - it's time to put that faith to the test.

Unfortunately your other children are correct. It's incredibly, incredibly, incredibly difficult to do what needs to be done.
_________________________
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings

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