well I don't hold Christians to a higher standard. I hold everybody to the same standard of Victor's moral code.
I'm not even sure that I notice any more when Christians don't meet up to my moral code - just that I notice the irony of it.

Don't get me wrong - nobody has a bigger chuckle than me when certain religious leaders get caught having a "massage" with the gay man, or certain Christian political leaders happen to be having an extra-marital affair while impeaching their president for doing the same ...
I think its all so sad it's laughable ...

But I just am saying that I don't see IN GENERAL that Christians have any fewer sins per capita than the rest of us. Yet they think they are on higher moral ground simply for claiming that they have the power of Christ behind them. Everybody's doo-doo smells the same, basically.

i brought this up in a thread a couple of days ago - the proportion of atheists in us prisons is 0.7% compared to 10% on the outside. this seems to suggest that religious people are 15 times as likely to break the law.

in my experience, christians are not les likely to sin. quite the opposite. they are more likely to hide behingd their jargon, like 'i'm a sinner saved by grace'. this comes across to me as an abdication of responsibility of the individual, and indeed the most morally conscientious people i know are ALL atheists. its not surprising to me, because when you haven't got the m,ask of your faith to hide behind, then you have to take more responsibility by yourself. there is no one here to save you from yourself but yourself.

why do christians not sin less than the rest of us? because they like to talk the talk, but are very rarely able to walk the walk. and they like to think they have the moral high ground, well, just because they like to.

ps, am i the only one who thinks of the ac/dc album hells bells when they see mrsjf's avatar?

I'm pretty sure the Jewish faith & Islam faith also talks about people being sinners.



You forgot to include the rest of my sentence..."So what?" That indicates pride. When we make mistakes, especially against other people, which is in essence what you're saying b/c sin in your eyes really is doing something against someone else, if we take your version of it. What happens when that person doesn't forgive us? Do we step back & say, "Ah well, I said I was sorry. If they don't forgive me, I can't help that." Or do we try to bug & bug & bug until they do forgive? Or do we just live in an unforgiven state of ourselves?

How is that humble? Would you really say, "Ah well, I'm just human" to someone you've committed something against? If you do, that's pride, not humbleness.

Victor, I'm not going to quote all of your post, but you seem to indicate that Christians do not take ownership. I guess this goes along w/Janimal's post as well. That's not accurate. It's the opposite -- Telling others & telling God especially that I'm a sinner does take ownership of all things you've done against others & against God. And there are consequences for our actions. Just b/c a Christian says, I'm a sinner does not abdicate them from facing the consequences associated w/that particular sin.



I know there are people in prisons who turn to Christ as opposed to Christians who end up in jail. Has anyone done research on how many actually turned to Christ while in prison as opposed to going in a Christian? I think that factor also has to be weighed in the numbers.



I agree w/you all are saying. IMO you should see Christians sinning less than others. Wouldn't that be ideal? But sadly, you really can't tell Christians from non by behaviors in this day & age. Which tells me that most Christians nowadays are in name only, not the heart change as we've tried to discuss here.



LOL That's too funny! I'm not into AC/DC so that never even crossed my mind!!! LOL

If I were to do something to hurt someone, especially if they were good people who didn't hurt others, I would feel guilt, remorse, pain.

If the wronged person forgave me, I would feel gratitude and humility, along with my remorse, and the pain would ease somewhat.

If the wronged person did not forgive me, then I would consider that to be my just desserts. I would feel bad & sad and I would have to find a way to live with that. The best way is to remember that no-one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. We are here to enjoy the life that has been given to us and to help others to enjoy theirs ~ not to wallow in sin and self-pity. Of course, some wrongs are so bad as to be unforgiveable.
But that's just my opinion.

I am human and humans make mistakes and do wrong, but I still have to live with those mistakes. That doesn't mean that I would say, well, I'm only human, what do you expect? I shan't apologise and I don't care if I'm forgiven; I feel no pain or remorse.
But why go round claiming 'I'm a sinner!'?

All that does is label me a born again Christian, along with all its connotations. Ie ~ I may be a mere human with human failings, but I am forgiven, regardless of the seriousness of any crime that I may have committed, because I am not just a sinner, but I am a saved Christian, too.

I can't see the point of that. Others will decide whether I deserve to be forgiven for my wrongs. It's not for me to decide, supposedly with the backing of God, Jesus and the Bible.

So the Jewish idea of 'sin' isn't like the Christian one.

But what do you say to yourself? Finding a way to live w/that -- how do you do that? Do you eventually forgive yourself? If you don't, then you ARE wallowing in your wrongs.



I agree w/you on the first part. But somehow you think we Christians wallow in self-pity or announce to the world, "I'm a sinner!" & then go on guilt-free whenever we DO commit a sin. That's not true. Guilt is conviction. We are basically saying the same thing, PDM. I call it sin. You call it making mistakes. If we are 'hard-wired' to make mistakes, we are 'hard-wired' to commit sins. We are sinners by our very nature.



When did I say that you shouldn't apologize? Every person that's wronged deserves an apology.



You assume that we don't feel those same things you described? There IS pain & remorse. There IS conviction, guilt. But not only do we owe the other person an apology, but we also owe our creator an apology.

I think, to a degree, we are indeed agreeing with each other, Mrs JF.

All I'm saying is that, along with the 'I'm a sinner' phrase goes all sorts of other connotations:

~I'm a Christian
~I belong to the 'Christian circle' ~ ie an exclusive club
~Christ died for my sins
~I am saved
~All sins are equal
~You are also a sinner

The term is used repetitively. It's like a mantra.

Why can't other phrases be used? ~ As you say, they mean much the same thing. Yet this term: 'I'm a sinner' is used constantly, but only by Christians.

Some might say that we are born sinners...
Others might say that we simply are born imperfect.

Why does every imperfection have to be "a sin"... and
why would God make me imperfect ... because Eve bit the Apple??? Is God THAT petty ?
Isn't it just as likely (if not more likely) that I was born imperfect because that's life - nature is not perfect and we are just living products of nature - with no Godly Hand deciding this and that about us?

What I am saying (and can't speak for Janimal here but maybe he feels the same) - is that Christians - for all their moral high ground and evangelizing - are pretty much the same as the rest of us - Except they like to wear their religion on their sleeve as a badge of Godliness.

And the motto printed on that badge is:
'I'm a sinner'

you've got it about right, victor. you only have to look at some of the forum names and avatars here.