It's actually both. As a Christian my faith is not in my good works, but in Jesus. I have faith that Jesus has saved me from hell by covering my sins. You see PDM nothing I do can blot out my sins. It would be like asking a judge forgiveness for murder because I had fed some orphans, or asking to go free of rape charges because I had helped fund a battered women's program. The Bible says that my works are like filthy rags to the Lord.

My salvation comes from God and God alone so that He can get the glory for saving me. The things I do are a result of the new creation I have become which desires to do good. It's not a payback for salvation but an inward desire resulting from an inward change.

Yes everyone will do good at one point or another in their life, but that good never out weighs the bad and the scales ultimatly end up tipped against us. That is why we still need a sin covering. The Jews had the exact same thing pre-Jesus. They had the commandments, they did good, but even with all of their good deeds they still needed a sin sacrifice to pay their sin debt.


If by didn't do good works you mean you just couldn't get anything to work as you intended then I believe nothing would happen. For instance if you decided to try and build a homeless family a home because you felt led by God to do so, and for some reason or another it just didn't work out then your intentions were in the correct place. However if in the process of getting the house built you decided to skimp out on some things or make a small profit, then the intentions are now ruined, and tainted. There is such a thing as doing the right things for the wrong reasons. God knows the true reasons and is able to look at the person's heart. If the heart is truly a servant's heart then He will know, but if the heart is seeking personal glory then again He will know.

Very nicely written. And it makes a great "way to live."

That's the way people should live regardless of Jesus or God or eternal reward, etc. I try to.

Take away the "eternal fire of hell pit" and you have the makings of a very nice code.

Wow a compliment from you? Where's the stick?

stick? Why? I have nothing against living right.

It's wrapping it all up in mystical superstition, with supernatural beings, and claiming that it's the "truth" that I have a problem with.


And who needs to even be concerned about Jesus or God with respect to this saying?

Our contention is so many of the "Christians" do the right thing in order to get into "heaven." Why do we need a reason at all to do the right thing?

Well, if good works are like 'filthy rags', why would you say that they were important?

And why would James allegedly say:

'So you see, it isn't enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn't show itself by good deeds is no faith at all ...'
[James 2:17-20]

I can't understand why the Bible should dismiss 'good works' as 'filthy rags' (and even if it did that doesn't mean that we should.)

What does the Bible actually say?



But this is from a specific story; it's not about mankind in general.

This is a 'prayer' to God, presumably from Isaiah.

He is asking the same things that some on here have asked ~ why doesn't God just come and show himself & his power, as he used to do?
Why doesn't he just come & deal with all the 'sin', by showing us his amazing strength?



Of course, you could say that we are as bad as they are, so the same thing counts for us as for them.

But it's not God who says here that man's good deeds are like filthy rags; it is Isaiah, who believes that God has abandoned his people. He seems to consider it a two-way thing. God has abandoned his people, so the people have abandoned God.

God has abandoned them because of their iniquities; they sin because God is not there to show them the way.

Either way, it would appear to Isaiah that God is not impressed with any good deeds that they may do because, generally, they are such a lawless group of people.

Does that mean that we all have to agree with Isaiah?

But I'm not talking about sanity, I'm talking about sin.

You, and other Christians on here, have said that all sins are equal in the eyes of God.

Now, accepting that we have all sinned, let's look at the case of the potential adoptive parents again.

Say one set are murdering paedophile rapists, while the others have gone scrumping for apples (pinching apples off a tree) as teenagers.

Who should be granted the children?
As you say, it's a no-brainer.

Why is it a no-brainer?
Because pinching apples from trees is not a major sin and murdering kids is. It's as simple as that ~ a no-brainer!

I'm sure that if we can work that out, then the greatest brain in the universe should be able to do so too.

If someone were to say to you that those two sets of prospective parents were equally sinful, because any and all sin is equal in the eyes of God, and the children were subsequently granted to the paedophiles for this reason, what would you then think?

After all, if they are equal in God's eyes, why not in yours?

If my sins are as bad as those of the murderer, which is what has been implied on here, and I am, therefore, no better, nor worse, than the murdering paedophile rapist, then you / we / they should not and could not decide between those two couples.

But we can ~ it's a no-brainer!


PS. As far as I know, Satanists aren't necessarily as bad as one might think and most probably wouldn't harm the children.

PDM, I can understand your reasoning about the adoptive parents. I agree to a certain extent. While I believe that God looks at everyone's sins equally, I don't believe that the consequences of those sins while on earth are equal. Let me explain:

In that scenario you described, murdering paedophile rapists would have a bigger consequence for their sin than the parents who stole apples in their younger years. The rapists' consequence would be not to be trusted around children & should have no children in their presence so they could do no harm to them. A parent who stole an apple as a teenager would be able to be trusted around children. Their sin did not involve children in any way.

Exactly ~ the sins are not equal in any way, shape or form.
I am convinced that, if God exists in a manner that can involve thinking about sin, then 'he' could work this out & respond accordingly.

If both the rapist & the apple-thief repented on their death-beds, what then?

Any different consequences for the person who destroyed children's lives, as opposed to the boy who ate an apple from someone else's tree?

quote=PDM
As far as I know, Satanists aren't necessarily as bad as one might think and most probably wouldn't harm the children

I have an acquaintance here who is well entrenched in the world of the late Mr LeVay. He's a definate pacifist who shows everyone equal respect, has a great empathy for young, old and everyone in between. I cannot say a single bad word, or think of any occasion that I have thought ill of his actions or words.

I would trust him before the majority of the persons i have come into contact regardless of colour creed or religious persuasion.

Concern, suspicion, fear & hatred, about most groups, is usually based on ignorance, I find.