I don't think the afterlife works like that. You did this, so you go there, you did this which wasn't so bad so you get to come in.



Of course there are different consequences for each sin. They are different b/c the sins are different. As we said before, one can be trusted w/children, the other can't be. Both might serve jail time, both cannot be trusted but in different forms. The rapist's consequences might be life long whereas the boy's isn't. On earth, there are consequences & fallouts from every sin. But after death, if we have repented from those sins & truly mean what we say & humble ourselves, I think the repentance is what matters, not exactly what we did.

Another question we could ask would be what if the rapist was truly repentant whereas the boy wasn't? Should the rapist still have it held against him whereas the boy shouldn't?

The prayer goes, "...forgive me my debts as I forgive..." It relates to belief. Can I forgive others for what they've done? Doesn't really matter whether I have the 'power' to forgive them. Would I? Or would I refuse to because I don't think they are worthy of forgiveness? And at the bottom, I don't think that I am worthy? Or maybe I don't truly think that I am repentant. Or I don't think that there is One who can forgive me my debts whether I forgive others (and myself), or not.

Thank goodness we are not God, huh?

Help my unbelief, Lord.

I think that forgiveness & understanding can be a good response to bad deeds, but not always.

I know the topic has probably gone way past the initial point, but I'll give my two cents anyway. =(

As a "Christian," follower of Christ, myself, I despise the saying "I'm a sinner" also. I hate it. ESPECIALLY when Christians say it. Why? Because no where in the Bible are people called sinners. Believers are NEVER mentioned as sinner. They are called Saints. Yet our religiosness has painted only particular people as Saints (Catholocism mainly) and the rest of us are just trduging along.

Tangent, sorry.

But to say we are sinners, just human, make mistakes, etc etc and generally making yourself look like a lowly little worm in comparison to God is terrible. That is not who we are nor who we were created to be. If God made us to be in His image, as demi-gods over this earth, than that we are. We are co-heirs with Christ, and Co-laborers with Him. We are not lowly little creatures who just drag ourselves on this earth, and I'll give a heavy smack upside the head to any Christian who thinks that.

And I do believe I got a little preach in there, more so than the teach. Mm... =P
God does not see us this way. We are not sinners, we are saints saved by grace. We are children of God, set apart, without a spot of blemish. Though I may not believe totally with the theology of Entire Sanctification, I do adhere to parts of it. I'd advise reading up on people like A.B. Simpson and maybe google "Entire Sanctification" and read up on some of the theologians of this movement. I believe that at the point of "conversion" if I can call it that, we step into a new realm.

who says a worm is lowly? A worm is one of Gods creations (apparently) isnt it... what did the worm ever do to you.

"and I'll give a heavy smack upside the head to any Christian who thinks that." - Gee, seems the thought police have arrived!!

"I hate it" - no a very christian-like quality is it?

Niki, it's good to see a Christian with a more positive attitude about the human lot.

'If God made us to be in His image, as demi-gods over this earth, than that we are. We are co-heirs with Christ, and Co-laborers with Him. We are not lowly little creatures who just drag ourselves on this earth,'

That seems like a much more positive interpretation

'I'll give a heavy smack upside the head '

No ~ sorry ~ we can't have that!
No threats of violence on the forum please ~ even light-hearted ones might be misinterpreted, so be careful!

'I believe that at the point of "conversion" if I can call it that, we step into a new realm. '

That's where we part company. I think that we are all special ~ regardless of our religious beliefs. Life is special & 'miraculous' ~ even the life of the 'lowly' worm ~ who still plays his part.

[b][quote=PDM][i]'I believe that at the point of "conversion" if I can call it that, we step into a new realm. '[Niki][/i] That's where we part company. I think that we are all special ~ regardless of our religious beliefs. Life is special & 'miraculous' ~ even the life of the 'lowly' worm ~ who still plays his part. [/quote][/b] Those familiar with my posts know that I don’t do a lot of what Christians call testifying. Nevertheless, from time to time I have talked about “mile markers” along my path. After getting out of the Navy, I took four quarters to finish up by BA degree at a college in San Diego, intending to then enter seminary. Prior to going to work for a Christian FM radio station, I worked a few hours each night cleaning the offices of my home church. My Pastor, Orval Butcher, always praised my work, commenting on how the porcelain and metal gleamed. He didn’t know it, but I employed a little trick. After cleaning the bathroom, I’d use a soft cloth, or tissue, to wipe off water and tarnish marks to leave the porcelain and metal looking “polished.” If I’d not done the cleaning, this last “trick” would look pretty cheap and phony, but with the “polishing” as a last step, it heightened the sense of “cleanliness.” I’ve talked before about a servicemen’s center in downtown San Diego, where I and a few members of our church would serve sandwiches, donuts, juice, and coffee to servicemen on Sunday mornings - and invite them to come to morning worship at our church. Volunteer host families would then take one or two home with them for dinner and hospitality and return them to church for the evening service. Then I’d take them back downtown. Even though the center was supposed to be for servicemen, I would also invite street people. Early on, I worried that people would see that the Christian love that I professed was shallow and perhaps not even real (since I knew that I have doubts and desires and longings and am far from any definition of perfection). As each incident became part of a pattern, I came to realize that the reason that people accepted the love I spoke of as real, and did not challenge me, was not because my love was so real. They saw God’s love within me, reaching out to them. I still believe this. Without the inward “cleaning” of the change that God did in my life, the “polish” of talking to people about God’s love and offering them refreshment, hospitality, and companionship would have been seen for only “window dressing.” But with that change, my personality and individuality added an heightening and sincerity. Without the change, it would be a “trick” - like polishing dirty porcelain. With the change, it became a personal sharing. So, my point is that although I join in with critiquing religious dogma, and believe that each of us have our own individual paths to God, I still believe that there is something special that happens within the life of each person touched by God. The “worm” is special. But if the worm is changed inwardly, it might not be able to “prove” the change. But it might demonstrate the change in how it lives its life. I have recognized that “change” in peoples from many walks of life - both within and without religion, and even in what others call “cults.” Finally, what God calls clean may not fit our personal or social ideas of cleanliness or beauty. So we need to hold back from certainty that we can always tell who is clean and who is not. IMO, of course.

Hi Carl....this was real beautiful. If more people took time to reach out to others, this world would be a much better place. You are so correct....what God calls clean, who are we to say differently....IMO. Hi Niki....Yes the bible states that we are co-heirs with Christ. But we are also sinners saved by grace. See Paul’s writing on this topic: 1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Blessings, Emilie

Eep! And this is why I should stick to my calling, teaching, not preaching. Hehe. ;P I let my voilent streak out too much. Sorry if I get to be a Bible-basher, it's just kind of my personality. I like to hit people, haha. In a loving way of course.

But besides that. Goodness, I didn't mean worm in a literal way. God bless the wormies, they're God's creation too. What I meant was the mentality that we are meaningless, which we are not. We are highly favored and children. Sorry if I offended the worms, they have meaning too. <3

PDM- "I think that we are all special ~ regardless of our religious beliefs. Life is special & 'miraculous' ~ even the life of the 'lowly' worm ~ who still plays his part."

Of course, I believe so too. Mm.. maybe what I said was worded strangely. But of course I believe everyone is special. Again, I should probably stay out of getting a preach into my typing. ;P

LordsLady- "But we are also sinners saved by grace."

Forgive me, but no we are not. You will not find the term "sinners saved by grace" in the Bible. What you will find is "saints." Nowhere in the Bible are the people of God or followers of the Way called sinners in ANY context.

In that passage referenced, Paul was talking about himself, and about his past, not present self.

To say we are sinners saved is an oxymoron. If you are saved, redeemed, justified, reconciled (etc etc) you are no long a sinner. You are saved, redeemed.. etc etc. That's you're new identity. It's like saying you are a filthy spotless cloth, it's a complete oxymoron. =)

Niki....I understand where you are coming from and I agree that once we have been saved, redeemed, etc we can no long refer to ourselves sinners.

Blessings,

Emilie