Victor, you have won my respect, and I see your points. I agree that is not a matter of right or wrong, or even maybe of looking for friendship. [although if a person gets in the habit of beginning to make enemies before he even attempts to understand the others with whom he deals, then the interaction with people on the net - unreal to him? - may follow with insisting that "real" people agree with him. Mopping up this worldly mess will not come by dictators telling people what to believe, I hope.

Beat his young spirit down? Talking about courtesy does that?

I would never try to silence the voice of experience and knowledge. However, I cannot in good conscience applaud rudeness and arrogance. I understand the concept of allowing our youth to find their way, but what exactly is it he has been found? Hate, intolerance? I don't believe those are good qualities in anyone regardless of age.

How does a young person learn to be tactful? How does one learn tolerance? I don't want to hinder his spirit, but someone has to tell him the truth that you can catch more bees with honey any day of the week and twice on Sunday than with vinegar.

You're right, he does not want friends and he certainly won't find any with that attitude.

Blessings,

Emilie

I did ask the one.
He said that everyone believes in something ~ and that's what he believes in. He also said that I believe in all sorts of weird & wonderful things!

He certainly did no preaching!

Thank you Carl....I too respect you victor. I don't agree with you at times, but I respect you and would never call you ignorant or stupid. It isn't a matter of being right or wrong...it is a matter of being courteous and considerate of those we interact with daily. He will never learn if he is not taught.

Blessings,

Emilie

yes, agreed, but I think it took us all many months to reach this point of mutual understanding and yes friendship.
it is hard to ask him to step into that level of maturity when it took us a long time ourselves.

i don't necessarily agree with his strategy - i think perhaps he is still in the stage of wanting to prove his point (which we all know is fruitless by now) - but i don't like to see the barrage of critical posts heading his way. i think it is beyond constructive criticism to see so many heading his way. personally, i'd like to see him stick around and get to know him better - find out where he has come from and where he is headed. to hit him over the head too hard will send him away - and then the discussion is lost altogether.

did you not all have similar criticisms of me at one point or another?

Ok, I'll risk putting my head back into the lion's mouth.

Let's look at PL's opinions and see what's going on.

PL (like my father & my husband and many others) was part of the Christian set-up, but found himself unable to find any truth or logic in the Christian message. He sought proof or evidence for it ~ and found none. I can empathise with that.

Finding nothing to back up the stories he was hearing in church, he stopped believing and began to wonder why others could not see what he had seen ~ that some of the stories are pretty incredible ~ ie unbelievable. Yet people believed them ~ why? He couldn't see why others weren't thinking logically and seeing what he saw ~ that it made no sense. It was so unbelievable as to be almost a joke. How could thinking, intelligent people actually believe that it was true.

I think that this must be his train of thought. If he holds these views, then he holds these views. Unfortunately, these views imply that at least some Christians must be unintelligent and willing to believe in a joke.

Here we reach a dilemma.

On the Forum Guidelines page,
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=120741#Post120741
Lisa says:



She also says:



And


On the Rules & Regulations page, she states:


The rule we are concerned with here is:



If 'all points of view are welcome', then this would include PL's. He is not flaming. He believes what he has posted. And 'it does not matter "why" a person holds a point of view. It only matters that they present their point of view and that you discuss that view'.

Victor has mentioned 'the barrage of critical posts heading his way' and I do wonder if these might not be construed as breaking rules in themselves.

As Mrs JF indicated, it may not be the content, but the tone that has caused upset. Lordslady has mentioned tact, respect and courtesy. And I agree that for the board to work, these are important elements.

The term respect has also been mentioned.

Now, it may well be that PaulLied has lost respect for those elders who are Christians because of his experiences.

He is forced to go to church.
He knows of immoral churchmen ~ who have been mentioned on here ~ including the paedophile priests.
He thinks that the men in the pulpit are lying to him, anyway, because he is sure that they are wrong
and many of them are just in the church for the financial and social rewards ~ and the status.

He is not flamimg, he is putting forward his ideas.

I do think that, like some fundamentalists, he does not consider that his beliefs are up for discussion, but, rather, that they are simply correct.

As a moderator, I try to ensure that the rules are kept, rather than keep the peace* ~ though I think that this is important if the board is to be a pleasant place to be.



I have pointed out to PL that insults etc are against the rules, but it isn't against the rules for him to state his views.

And I am not condoning insults by saying this.

If I say that the members shouldn't take criticism of their religion personally, then that is because this is the only way a religious discussion / debate forum can work. I can certainly see why it might be upsetting, but in a discussion forum one has to remain as objective as possible.

Of course it can be upsetting at times. I get upset and annoyed and frustrated and insulted, but I try to step away and calm down. Maybe that is why it appears that I condone some insults and condemn people for feeling insulted. Maybe, if I showed every time I felt angry or upset, the balance would be more easily observed.

It is not a condemnation when I say 'do not take things personally', it is a request to be objective, because only objectivity can work on a forum where such controversial and personal matters are discussed.

If I agree with someone whose views offend, I am not belittling or insulting, I am simply stating a fact.

PaulLied has offended a number of people and I have asked him to be more polite and to ensure that his vocabulary does not personally insult anyone, but I agree with him about not being able to find satisfactory evidence of Jesus, for example.

I also think that some of the comments going in his direction have gone a little too far.

Please, let's start again.

PL is new to the forum, and to the forum etiquette that has developed between us ~ and we don't always get it right, do we?

I would ask everyone to moderate their tones and to either discuss this subject calmly, and as objectively as possible in the circumstances or, since it seems to upset people unduly, not to discuss it at all.

I am not trying to offend anyone; I am trying to keep things on an even keel.

Also -
I wonder if PaulLied was actually a militantly devout Christian -
Would you be so hard on him for his unyielding convictions? .. or would you praise him for his wisdom beyond his years?

If the criticism is that he is unyielding and purports to have all the answers - then that criticism must be valid for both sides of the coin.

And with that, I bid you a good night.
I am coaching my son's soccer team this fall and tomorrow is the all day "coaches clinic". Gotta get up with the roosters for that don't miss event.

I found things within the Christian religion and within other religions, as well, that I did not agree with. I pursued my own journey, and still do. Nonetheless, I find no pleasure in telling others how wrong they are to believe as they do.

Sorry if that breaks the rules. PDM, Victor, PaulLied, my apolgies for being who I am.

I will offend no more.

I will also apologize and forgive PL. It would only be the correct thing to do. Now the ball is in his court and it is his turn regardless of his age to make amends and also do the correct thing especially since he alleges to believe in doing good.

I have a 16 year old grandson. He is a gentleman and a sweet spirit. He does not attend religious school but rather a public school. He would never address anyone as this young person has addressed this forum. I don't take it personal and again am not offended if he does not agree as I do, most of you don't. My problem arises when people assume they know how I think, act and eat just because I am a Christian.

By now, most of you know that Christians come in different shapes and sizes. We don't all adhere to the same man made doctrines. We are not cookie cutter believers. We have each established relationships with God and those relationships are unique and personal. I also take offense to being called stupid, ignorant, delusional, etc.

People have their opinions and are entitled to them. I too am entitled to mine. For this reason, I will withdraw from posting so as not to offend anyone.

I am a believer in new beginnings. Jesus gave me the opportunity to start anew when I met Him. I would be amiss if I did not extend that courtesy to others.

I will miss the many wonderful discussions we have had and wish all of you the best life can offer. Continue debating and learning from one another. Have a blessed life.

Blessings,

Emilie

Sorry, I forgot to log in under my own name. The above is obviously not from my husband.

Blessings,

Emilie