i don't really get why so much venom is being directed at victor here. which is why i'm pulling back. this doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

janimal, I tend to agree--this seems to be going no where.

Yes there is and I think that, if the thread is to 'go somewhere, we need to sort it out.

And it either should or should not be taken seriously. The 'race' issues on Big Brother were ignored until the situation blew apart. Ignoring things because some of us don't recognise a problem only makes the problem worse.

Absolutely!
And such inspirational stories can be found in various cultures in different places.

Perhaps this needs to be given more objective consideration ~ without emotion or arguments.

Yes, I think that's right. I don't like rap music, or all the 'bling' & posing that seem to go with it, or some of the fashions ~ and many of the lyrics are awful. Does that make me racist or classist or ageist or something?
I don't know ~ I just know what I like and what I don't.

Actually, one of my favourite singers is black ~ or was (since we are talking about this issue ~ otherwise I would not have brought it up). Nat King Cole was my Dad's favourite and one of my Mum's, too, and now the whole family loves his music, including my kids. Interestingly, in view of what Lora said earlier, I remember my Dad saying that he was accused by other black people of being a 'white' Black man.

I have always considered Lora & Victor to be even-tempered and polite, so I am really surprised at the way this thread has turned out ~ with them being in apparently opposing camps, insulted or upset by each other. I'm really sorry to see this. And I really don't think that any of this 'unpleasantness' has been deliberate ~ I think that it must be due to a misunderstanding.

I really don't think that Victor has ever intended to upset or insult Lora, but Lora is upset ~ over the way that she feels that her culture is & has been trivialised, how this is exemplified in the use of the word 'ghetto' and how this shows a lack of understanding of the suffering that many Black people have endured over centuries and which she still experiences today in the form of racist insults.

I think that the problem here is that anyone who has not been through it cannot understand it, and even those whose families have endured it, can throw it off if they are able to assimilate into the changing culture.

Black people cannot become white and probably don't want to do so ~ why on earth should they!? ~ but that means that the differences are still visible to all ~ and, for some bigots, that means that they feel that they can spit or insult or be nasty and negative in whatever way they wish ~ while some lucky white people, who are not subjected to racism, and are not living impoverished in the 'ghetto', go around in their baggy trousers, pretending to be rappers, and shouting 'that's so ghetto' in an assumed Black ghetto American accent.

Is it a trivial matter?
Does it show a lack of understanding?
Is it empathy?
Is it just one of those things?
Is it ignorance?
Is it racism?
Is it the opposite of racism?

Many of us here have dismissed this as just a change in the meaning of a word and even an actual positive appreciation of aspects of Black culture, but it is often the same story with matters of prejudice like racism: ~
Is what is intended the important thing, or how it is received / perceived?

Lora has mentioned the 'n' word. Most of us consider this to be a negative and racist term, but all it means is 'black' / Black person, so, if I decide that linguistically it just means a Black person, and so I were to innocently use it, to and of all the Black people I met, would that make it OK?


There is another word that is misused in the eyes od some ~ 'Icon'.
A Serbian Orthodox priest I met is very upset about the way that this word is used ~ of famous people; of small images on a computer.
He is horrified because 'Icon' has a special religious meaning:
'In Eastern Christianity and other icon-painting Christian traditions, the icon is generally a flat panel painting depicting a holy being or object such as Jesus, Mary, saints, angels, or the cross.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon

'Icon' and now 'ghetto' have been taken over and used, or misused, by others ~ people from different cultures.

Is this a bad thing?
Is it just inevitable?
Should we fight for what we think is right?
Or should we just get over it?

This is more important to some than to others, obviously, and I think that we need to respect that and be careful not to step on toes ~ even if we disagree with each other.

To be honest -
I'm not angry or upset at all.
Just holding my ground. And like I said before - some people like sarcasm, some people don't, and some people don't get it.
I can write with a pretty sharp pen, no doubt.
If that makes me hostile - so be it. It's in my nature.
People can read (or apparently "misread") my words however they want.
Personally, I'm glad that the people who have known me the longest on this forum clearly know who I am and know my writing style - and amazingly they know my general positions and thought processes.
For the people who don't know me so well - maybe one day you will figure out a bit more about me and you will reconsider your judgement of me. There is no underlying "rage" in my position - but I do not give up a debate just because somebody is 19, female, and their skin color is different than mine. That's because I treat every single person with the same level of respect and dignity that a human being deserves. If I didn't have some respect for Lora, I would not be in this debate at all. I actually tried to stay on point as much as I could - which is why I kept trying to come back to my main disagreement: use of the word ghetto. I'm not sure I disagree with Lora on much more than that - oh yeah, except that I'm not a racist sexist white guy.

Cheers.

I hope that we all do ~ but sometimes, as we have seen on this forum so many times before, people are hurt by things which are not meant to be hurtful.

But Lora is upset, which must make us ask why.
Are any of us being unwittingly offensive?

or are we being misunderstood?

Or both???

No... I would recommend against doing that. The 'n' word used by white people is simply not allowed (I'm assuming you're white--forgive me if I'm wrong.) I said it once jokingly to a black friend in high school. I don't don't think he personally took it offensive, but word got around, and I got some horrible horrible looks from both whites and blacks alike--people who'd known me/seen me around for years.

I've heard similar stories of white people who act 'black' using it and receiving much the same reaction. Hey, they're around black people who are calling each other it--just trying to fit in, right? Didn't happen.


I agree with you. It simply means 'black' and nothing more, however, cultural history has given it a different meaning. We could have the same discussion about, oh.. any cuss-word, for instance. I mean, s*** just means 'poo,' no? But yet it's simply not appropriate in some (many) cases.