Well, I don't want to poke a stick at a hornet's nest but...

1) My next-door neighbor, a black woman who grew up in a very tough neighborhood, uses the phrase "that's so ghetto" when criticizing other neighbors who stand in the street talking at the top of their lungs to other people, or who hardly ever mow their lawns, or who park out front for twenty minutes with their car stereos blasting. In other words, for good or for bad, it's roughly the equivalent of saying, "Those people have no class."

2) And speaking of class: a frequent problem with discussions of modern-day "ghettos" is that race gets all the focus to the exclusion of class (as in, economic class). There are libraries' worth of sociological research about this issue; suffice it to say that "ghetto" life is rough not because people are black (or red or white or whatever) but because they are poor!

3) With all due respect for all the previous posters' thoughts, I was struck by the amazing similarity of the "angry black woman" issue to the "angry woman" in general issue. This is not in any way to dismiss the race dimension to LoraX' comments or feelings. What I mean is that I can speak from many years of observation as well as having read research on this -- there tends to be a pattern of responses by many men (and some women) whenever women start arguing strongly about feminist issues (pay inequity or rape prevention or any other "hot" topics) -- the term "angry" surfaces, as though to suggest (a) an inappropriate emotional aspect and (b) an out-of-control aspect. Frankly, it's similar to saying, "Whoa - the little lady's all upset - she should not bother her pretty little head about such big things, and besides, women are supposed to be charming and soothing and harmless, not angry." I believe the posts weren't intended to be so dismissive, and perhaps this pattern's on a subconscious level.

sorry, but thats an absolute crock. i did not bring up the anger thing because i wanted top dismiss or belittle anyone, as i have been at pains to explain. i repeat - this is not a black thing, nor is it a woman thing. i'm one of the most egalitarian people you are likely to come across. i was pointing out, and i am not alone in this, that lora was posting in a manner which is very reactionary and not helpful to a constructive discussion. that is nothing more than an observation.




i am saying the same thing i have been saying all along. the solutions to the problems of the present are not to be found in the past. i don't know how i can make it any clearer.

what really puzzles me here is that i am deeply sympathetic to anyone on the receiving end of prejudice. one thing i really dislike about the usa is its institutional race barriers. you seem to ignore this in the wake of getting upset about a couple of things i said, when, if you stopped and thought for a moment, you would actually realise that i am not against you in this, i just have different ideas about the way forward. i do not know why you seem to lack the ability to see this, and why it inspires such angry responses from you.

carl - thanks for the diplomacy, but i don't think it worked.

Lora: Nowhere have I said that ALL rich culture springs from cxxxxx neighborhoods. There are many different varieties of culture, some of it "high" culture like poetry and literature, which tends to come from relatively educated and well-off people and some of it "popular" culture, like many forms of popular music, which is often (but not always) a form of expression for the poor and the marginalised who can't necessarily write sonnets or make sculptures from Carrara marble.

If we're talking specifically about hip-hop, then it most definitely does have its origins both in black American culture and in the ghetto. It was not black professionals living in leafy suburbs who engendered hip hop. Admittedly, many of the rappers that are popular today are not from the ghetto, as you well mentioned. They aren't all black or American either. But still, the origins of that particular form of expression do lie in the "ghetto" and thus the theme of life in the rough part of town is a recurring one. That this form of expression has an appeal that goes well beyond the ghetto and American blacks: I don't see the problem with it, really. Lots of cultural genres spread beyond the people who invented them. Some hip-hop artists are posers who talk about a "ghetto" life they know nothing about, but ultimately imitation is not insult, it's flattery.

Beyond that, I find it difficult to reply to your post because we move around many different subjects. Your initial post was about the colloquial use of the word "ghetto", but now we have moved on to issues of stereotypes and your personal experiences with them and the glorification of violence in hip-hop.

About the first matter, I'm sorry if you are stereotyped as being something you're not. I agree that it's ignorant and perhaps racist. I don't really understand what the use of certain slang words by certain people has to do with it, however. The problem there is much more complex and serious than whether certain people use certain slang or not.

About the second matter, the glorification of crime and violence in rap music is one that's been discussed many times before, including on this forum. There are different points of view. I can understand why some people are bothered by it. At the same time, I would point out that the glamorization of outlaws and criminals is very deeply ingrained in American culture and is not limited to black people or "the ghetto". Old Western films romanticised outlaws and renegades. Popular shows like "The Sopranos" and films like "The Godfather" romanticise the crime and violence of the mafia, and so on. Maybe this doesn't set a good example for young ones, but I can understand the appeal coming from a culture with a very individualistic spirit where people somehow admire those who go against the rules and the system.

Well, hurt or offended people aside, the topic is getting discussion. That's good, right?

absolutely. would be nice if it wasn't so frustrating though.

PudMom:

1) Yes, my own mother refers to certain people as 'ghettolicious,' and to some types of behavior as 'ghetto.' And like your neighbor, she doesn't mean it as a compliment. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that that's the kind of life she came out of. I don't really know what to make of it...I just woke up jajaja

2) You have a point. The ghetto is not isolated to Black people. However, the word 'ghetto' as colloquially used today has an implication of aspects of black culture that people like to emulate. That's why the race thing keeps coming up here.

3) You're right.

Janimal:

I don't think anyone's trying to find solutions to present problems in the past. My point was that a large chunk of the roots of today's problems lie in the past, and while we should still move forward, we should not forget them.

I'll put it on a smaller scale: my mother has a lot of things to deal with to this day because of how she grew up (and it's not just because she lived in a bad area, but it is also due to other things which I will not post on this forum).

And she has done an admirable job of moving forward, but that doesn't mean she ignores where she came from. Where she came from has a lot to do with who she is today. Don't you think my mother would (probably--I know you don't know my mother) be a lot different if perhaps she grew up in an affluent suburb?

And wouldn't Blacks today be a lot different if slavery had never happened? Wouldn't whites? jajaja and I'm not ignoring your sympathy for those who get xxxx from the Man. I'm disagreeing with your ideas on how to move forward.

Capt. H:

You are right. It was not suburban Blacks who came out with rap. And I am not trying to say that no one should emulate black culture. But there are so many other aspects of black culture to be proud of--don't you think it's interesting that the most widely emulated aspect is that of blacks in a poor economic position?

And I don't think this is flattering. Should my mother be thanking pop culture for thinking that the way she had to grow up was cool? I don't quite know how to explain this.

I'll try using my mother again. Wen my mother was growing up, she never felt deprived. She didn't feel like the poor kid on the block--because everyone was broke--but something inside of her knew that it was a bad situation.

My mom often describes breaking off the icicles that would form on the inside of her windows during the winter because the heat wasn't working, and eating them like a treat. She recalls these things laughingly.

But there is another part of her that remembers her childhood in a dark way. She often tells me about having to walk through crack heads to get to her building, navigating her way around the puddles of pee in the elevator, hearing people get shot on the roof at night, and then looking out of the window and telling herself, "I have to get out of here."

So now she's grown, and she's succeeded in getting herself out. But she has all of these young sheep of our Blessed Lord Pop Culture jumping around glorifying ghetto life. Now people are glorifying the kinds of things she went through growing up. Do you see what I mean? It cheapens the experience she had.

So I guess it's not so much the imitation that bothers me, but rather the romanticization. And you are right to say that romanticizing the 'rough life' if something that exists beyond 'the ghetto.' But that doesn't make it right.

So, I know this is going to be long, but bear with me, because I just had a thought about rap. I've often noticed that my parents tend to identify with things said in earlier rap (such as 'It's Christmas Time in Hollis, Queens/Mom's cooking chicken and collard green... )

But the newer the rap gets, the less they like it. Now, part of it might be because they're old farts lol. But another part of it might be something else. Again. I'll bring up my mother (ya'll must be getting sick of her). Remember how I showed you how there was a thin line between her fond memories of growing up the way she did and her not so fond memories? Maybe the glorification of 'the ghetto' in rap is a reflection of that.

Early rap tends to represent the fonder memories, while current rap tends to glorify the bad things--the crime, the drugs, and the role of women.

And by the way, if you ever want to hear a perfect representation of my mother's mixed feelings about how she grew up, listen to Donny Hathaway's 'The Ghetto.' It's predominantly instrumental, and it's ingenious...I love Donny Hathaway

my deepest respect goes out to your parents.they are a living example of what one can do if one truely desries to change their situation.what I tell the young people in my church that live in the projects is you reside in the projects but the project doesn't live in you.your parents are living proof of that.it would be great if people who have make something of their lives that came from trouble children would speak to different young groups of all races;to encourage them to keep fight for a better way of life.

Hmm.. I admit I've had a difficult time sorting through what people have been saying to extract the "meat," but I have a question, directed mostly at Lora, but for everybody:

"black culture," being the baggy jeans, the rap music, the slang, etc. What's your take?

As me (I'm white, if it matters at all,) I don't like it, have never liked it, though I admit I find baggy clothes comfortable, in that they're neither restraining nor revealing, as many "typical female" clothes are now. (not nearly so baggy, though, where I have to waddle in order to keep my pants up!)

As for my husband, who's black, he will speak openly about how the baggy jeans, the music, the slang, the whole image, is a disgrace to blacks and that those who strive for that image should be ashamed of themselves--particularly if they are, in fact, black.

thats better...

i'm not saying anyone should be ignoring their background or their past, but i don't think the past should be part of the process of dealing with the present. when it is, you tend to end up with situations like northern ireland, which spent much of the last 4 decades in a virtual state of civil war because pople were perpetually offending each other by dragging up centuries old traditions and issues. it wasnt unil recently when they decicded to draw a line in the sand that progress even began to be made. its an oversimplification of the irish question, but thats the jist of it.

the slave trade is a grim legacy, and its lesson must be learnt by everyone. the establishment here still has a little trouble that it all began with sir francis drake, a huge english historical hero. that said, there is no-one alive today that carries any responsibility for what happened, so why should they answer for it? for my own part, thats why i reacted to the slavery reference the way i did.

as for the romanticisation of ghetto culture, i kinda see what you mean, but there is a lot to be said for embracing your situation with your cultural identity. going back to ireland, this is exactly how micheal collins won the irish civil war in the 1st half of the 20th century. he gave the irish their identity back and educated them about their opression wih a cultural campaign. the trouble with some rap is basically banging on about how hardcore life is to the point of being self indulgent, without the co-ordination you need to do something constructive with protest music.

Isn't rap protest music? Isn't that what it started out as anyway?