Argyll, you say that you are agnostic ~ yet you claim to know this for sure? I'm sorry, but I don't think that you can know this.

Enough people have had experiences of ghosts for something to be going on. What the explanation is, I do not know. How can you, personally, 'know' what is going on? How can you state, for sure, that they are a figment of someone's imagination?

Once one stops saying that one does not know, and starts saying, dogmatically, that something cannot be true, then there is a major change in outlook. Being dogmatic, whether pro or anti religion &/or superstition, is closing ones mind to possibilities.

Would God go to extra lengths to get the attention of someone who dogmatically denies God's existence and closes his/her mind to possibilities? I'd like to think that it takes our willingness, if not our active seeking, to look for God within and without ourselves. Yet, the Biblical records suggest that Saul was actively denying that Jesus was the Christ, and then he had his vision.

But I think Saul was a godly man. So maybe he was not predisposed to discount visions. Others might continue to dogmatically deny even with a vision. Perhaps they might do the same even if God appeared before them (and did not force them to believe).

Thank goodness we don't have beings with staffs of power, like on SG1 and Atlantis, forcing us to believe or die.

Yes, I know that the Bible and Christianity say that all will die the "eternal death" if they do not choose God. But whether one believes in hell and punishment or not, it might be that separation from God might be a negation of life.

It might just be (and I think it is) that all life is from, and sustained by, God.

I found an item on another thread asking a related question:

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=78344&fpart=3

Basically, the reason so many people can dogmatically deny the existence of God is because it is so reasonable to do so.

Why, if God is there, isn't 'He' at least as obvious to all of us as breathing or love?

I might say that why 'He' isn't as obvious as breathing or love is perhaps we've lost the 'psychic' ability to sense 'Him' along the way - like the appendix original function. However, if the Biblical records are anywhere near correct, apparently ordinary people did not sense God in their everyday lives. It took a "burning bush" experience or something similar.

Maybe we see him but pass right over him without noticing because we don't associate what we are seeing into patterns that are familiar to us. What if the universe itself is sentient, and God? Not totally serious, here. Just speculating.

I just don't know why.

But even knowing so very little, I wouldn't go back because there is a "belonging" feeling that I have that is independent of church acceptance or or how good (or not) I'm doing. Reasonable or silly - pales beneath feeling accepted as I am.

Perhaps some don't need that, but I know I did and do.

And many I meet really want that, also.

Another point - I think for some, it is less an issue of whether they can or do believe in God (or "The Other") than it is a feeling of hurt and anger at God at why 'He' hasn't shown them 'His' love - usually in ways that they have demanded, or begged for.

That was the topic of discussion with the being I've talked about. He said that I had long doubted God's love for me.

There are at least two people on this very board (and maybe 3) whom I sense are quite angry at God. I don't judge them in this, since I admit that I was, also.

My hope is that they, and others, will pause a while, and stand willing to look at experiences and events and conversations in a "show me" attitude. Who knows? Maybe there will be personal proof for them.

PDM:

Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm getting closer to atheism.

Mark, no matter what your beliefs are or are not, and no matter what I believe or don't, I still consider you my buddy.

I hope that still counts for something with you.

That's nice of you to say, Carl. We have a tendency to align with those who reflect similar ideas on this board. That's not to say that fondness for those who oppose our ideas cannot develop if the exchanges are civil and constructive. You and I have had bouts and friendship, so I think we are in good shape at this point.

My beliefs are what they are and I rather like who I am at this point in my life. I feel I have a good grasp on truth, but then...what the hell is truth anyway? Mine is mine, yours is yours and as long as they don't rub too hard against one another, who would know the difference?

I may indeed be sliding towards atheism...I really don't know. Not only do I not know, but I don't care. If there is a god and it is an issue, I'm sure he will point it out to me.

The pursuit of truth has kept man busy for a very long time. I just heard it said that the only unequivocal truth available to us can be found in mathematics. One plus one always equals two.

Perhaps this truth that we seek isn't really there at all and that is why it eludes us perpetually. We seek what cannot be found.

I test truth, or shall I say reality, by my senses. What I can see, feel, smell, hear and taste definitely exists. What we can all see, feel, smell, hear and taste collectively indeed exists. What someone claims to have seen - that cannot be qualified by at least one of those senses - I cannot accept as being real.

Logic is there for a reason; it helps us determine, through reason, that something is real or not. It also helps us determine what action to take in dealing with a situation. Some of us may have a stronger sense of logic than others. Some of us may have the ability to detach fact from fiction more easily than others.

This debate will never go away until is is put away through the scientific process or until the sky rips open and angels descend from on high in plain sight of us all. I don't think that either of those things will ever happen however.

Why talk about all of this then? Who the hell knows?

Marko

I'm too scared and superstitious to be an atheist.

When we get right down to bare bones...isn't that what we're really speaking of? Superstition?

The stories are allegory, everyone has their own take on god and there is nothing but opinion and "personal experiences" to substantiate any of it.

Why would any thinking person put their faith in such a belief?

Superstition! Well said Mbas!

Marko

And to think that is has to do with one's being receptive or intuitive can't be it. I think if there is a god, the playing field would be level. For it not to be would be sinister.

Marko