I appreciate greatly everybody posting their comments. I have read them over several times. I believe at this point I understand where you are coming from.

From the very beginning of these forums there have been members who avidly wanted to swear. They felt swearing was their right as a human being and anybody who did not want to read those swears could leave / not read them. They felt the same way about openly denigrating issues. They felt readers should "man up" and grow a thicker skin. These are not new issues, so I am familiar with them intimately.

I understand the desire to voice negative opinions. We have had this discussion many times over the years, and I do understand some people simply enjoy swearing as part of their normal language. Some people enjoy using certain words as the way they speak. They feel a reader who cannot handle the language is not mature enough to participate in an online forum.

I understand where those people are coming from. I understand their point of view. It is certainly a valid point of view in general on the web. We are not a "milk toast" forum here. In many ways these forums were created precisely to have "challenging discussions". We discuss if the Bible is accurate or not and other issues which can greatly upset people. So we are not a pussy-footing forum.

At the same time, we *are* a rational, mature discussion forum which welcomes visitors from all cultures and backgrounds. A key foundation for this forum is that all of these visitors feel welcome and able to join into the discussion. I do not want for example our forum to drive away all Indian members because they feel strongly about swears and they find our forum is full of swears. I do not want libraries to block our forums so that a large portion of our visitors can no longer even get them to display (members or not).

For this and many other reasons in our private membership-based forum, and according to its posted rules, swearing and denigrating language are NOT permitted. This is not new. This is our foundation and was how we were created.

I have posted many times over the years explaining why we have the rules that we do. If members would like me to re-post all of those discussions and link to them, I would be more than happy to do it. Many discussions have also taken place in PMs and emails of course as well. Maybe it would be beneficial if I made up a full page of our "forum philosophy" that went over these ideas in great detail, and new members who missed previous discussions could read through that. Would that be helpful?

I think it's important to reiterate - again - that our stated rules need to apply to everyone. If a given person wants to swear, we cannot make an exception to our long standing no swear rules for that one person. The rules need to apply to everyone. They are not random rules, they exist for every important issues.

This is an extremely serious issue. Cyberbullying is now a felony in many states. This forum could vanish in a puff of smoke if we do not adhere to the rules that are in place. It is my primary duty to keep this forum alive and running, and not shut down by the police.

I have never asked for members to change their points of view. I have been a strong proponent of atheists and catholics, of buddhists and hindus. What I have always stated in our rules is that we treat every other person with respect. I would hope that this is a guideline that every member could abide by. This guideline should not be a surprise to any member. It was required reading when you created an account, and required reading again when I updated them recently. It may simply be that some members felt they could ignore the rules, and are upset at their being upheld.

I understand the desire to debate rules, and to speak in a way you have been doing for years (or decades). But again, these rules are not new, and they should not be a surprise. They have always been a core part of these forums and they need to apply equally to all forum members.

If those guidelines statements were not clear enough, then I apologize, and I will gladly take suggestions on how to update them to be more clear. However, our rules on swearing and denigrating issues are not one that can be debated out of existence. They are the foundation of this forum.

So while I definitely appreciate discussion on all topics - including "meta-discussion" about our own forum, the rules have always been there and have always been public.

I think part of what this thread shows is that the rules must have been unclear, if some members were in any way confused about why posting swears or posting denigrating comments were against our stated rules. I can work on that.

Indeed! I'm sure we can all agree on that.

To the topic of the initial change and post...! It seems me and hubbie are in need of another talk. He feels "distant, isolated" from me now. Which I can understand when we founded our marriage on Christian ideals (Husband:Christ :: Wife:church ) and when we met I explicitly voiced that a relationship without christ is a relationship that does not know the author of love. Imagine that! Me the one to forsake that Christ. Every premarital session we had basically said Jesus somehow makes the marriage better (apparently even sex? That was a strange session... in hindsight!). We started each (*ahem*) night of our marriage at first with a prayer and Bible reading, for example.

Now that that's stripped, and I'm essentially going to Hell, well... let's just say I can understand what he's going through!

Honestly? I wonder if sometimes it'd be best for everyone if I just stepped back into it. Put the christian hat and glasses back on and just "made the leap of faith."

But even if it'd be easier, I don't think I can. Which makes me even more sad. I'm incapable now. What I know has stripped god from me like Santa being stripped from a little child.

There are definitely many issues like this that strike a relationship. Both might begin it feeling like they don't want kids - and then suddenly the woman hits age 35 and decides she desperately wants kids. Sometimes two people settle in Maine and plan on living their entire lives there - and then the guy gets a job he adores in California and wants them to move.

So don't feel like you are alone in this. You are definitely not alone. This is a challenge that many marriages face - and many get much stronger when they go through the challenge. So look at this as one of those many hurdles the marriage is going to face. That you can do it together.

I would always vote for being authentic. I would never fake anything in any relationship. So I would be yourself, honestly and truly.

If he's feeling isolated, then that is definitely an issue that happens in *many* marriages and it can be worked on! Building communication is an ongoing process. Yes, I understand part of it is the religious issue - but I imagine that along with that issue being brought up that maybe you guys have drawn apart a little as a result.

So make this a focus for your current times. Talk together. Talk about your feelings and your aims. Much of what Christianity is about is the ideals. Take care of other people. Strive for inner peace. Love your neighbors. You still have those ideas - and he does too. Find your common ground. Emphasize your commonality.

That's true Lisa, thanks. I thought about that as I was thinking and typing, that marriages and relationships go through change and religious changes certainly aren't the only ones! We haven't even had children yet!

Just another step in that change process. It's all new to me. It takes a lot of rethinking how the world works.

First order of business is probably to stop the forum discussions for a while and talk with Steve. I've noticed him watching me type when I'm at home. I don't like it, but he reads sometimes. I guess that makes him feel like I don't communicate with him.

I don't like to say it, but I am young after all! My personality type doesn't like me taking advice, but likes debate and discussion. However, it's good for me to step back and receive meaningful, relative words. With that said, I think I'll leave updating information on my journey and change until I have something new to contribute and get to talking with the hubbie.

I'll probably post here when I tell my parents. If I do! My blog will document all other thoughts. But I think I need to get my thoughts out with my better half more often, and get them out less here!

I was actually thinking that too, but I didn't want to make you feel unwanted at all! We love hearing from you and love your discussion.

But I know from many, many discussions with people in relationship problems that very often they pour our their heart and thoughts online - and ignore their partners in the process. It has a very direct effect.

If you spend all your time discussing issues with "others" - you don't have that time to spend talking about the issues with your partner.

And - as a compounding effect - your partner is alone during all these online discussions, so they feel sad and lonely. Unless they go and find their *own* online support group - which makes things worse.

We definitely want to hear from you! We want to learn about your journey and enjoy your thoughts. But your husband needs to come first! If you have all these turmoils of emotions, your husband needs to talk these through with you and share your ideas.

If Bob was sitting here sad and reading over my screen because he wanted to be with me, and I instead kept typing, I could see that being a sign of trouble. Your partner is the most important thing in your world - treasure him!

Let us know how it works!

My husband and I have been together for 35 years. Religion is not really a part of our lives, except as one of my interests. (He is more interested in sport.) We are happy together and content with our lives.

Two people do not have to agree on everything, or have religion in their lives, in order to love one another and be happy together.

I agree that communication, finding common ground, spending time together, understanding each other and confirming your shared love should help you to get through this.

My Mum is a believer, who doesn't like to even think about not believing, but this does not get in the way of our relationship.

See you when you have more time, Niki

asd far as i can see swearing and bullying have not been issues on this thread. if they have then please point out clearly where this is the case. otherwise all the talk about these points would seem to be irrelevant.

what did happen is that niki described the message (christianity) she used to spread as filth. a personal view and considered opinion based on her own acknowledgement of the many evils of the faith. in light of things like paedopriests and the subjugation of women filth actually seems a rather mild word. so no case opf bullying or swearing there.

what i suspect is going on here (and i have to guess because some folks lack the courage to whine in public, so we don't even know what complaints we are arguing about) is that the more fervently christian members of the board have taken offence at the the fact that niki, once a devout member of their flock, has no become one of its enemies. therefore, everything that comes out her mouth will be offensive to them, and they want her silenced. they feel threatened by niki's new found freedom, and this is their only way to deal with it. if they can't argue the toss in public they deserve to be ignored.

why are they able to play this game? i pointed out above that if white supremacism had been called filth instead of christianity then no one would have taken offence. but you can't say such things about religion because uniquely in society religion gets treated with kidd gloves.

niki has embarked on a very difficult journey and deserves all the support she can get. she does not need places like this board pandering to religious apologetics and protectionism by lighting a fire under her butt at the behest of complaints made behind closed doors. the board should recognise that the duality of her storyu is a very valuable resource to these religion threads and she should be able to speak freely.

please, moderators, actually respond to these points i have raised this time rather than getting into irrelevant talk about bullying and swearing. that is not what is happening here. i have always found the administration on this board very balanced, if somewhat restrictive, but i am disappointed by this.

Niki, I have found in the last few years, that thinking of myself as a "seeker of spirituality" helps me to not get bogged down in what others expect, or even feeling of guilt because of things I learned as a child and later in life.

I do NOT feel condemned. Indeed, I feel that my path is acceptable to the God of my understanding (and if there is no God other than my understanding, I'm okay with that, also).

The reason I find this is a good pattern for me is that I don't feel compelled to be what others want me to be. My wife, Marge, and I, have a good understanding that our concepts of God are our own, individually. As time goes on, I am finding that the over-all pattern of our thoughts on spirituality (which is actually quite earthy and natural) are really pretty similar.

We respect and love each other, and don't feel that it would be good (nor desirable) to try to control the other person.

As you and your husband talk, and support one another, I think you will find some common ground, also.

One main point (for me) is that you are not locked into what you are (or think) today. The path continues.

As big as my ego usually is, I find it hard to respond when attention is turned my way! So you've spoken well enough, I don't think I can add.

Although I have wondered. Why is it that religious people complain about my comments while being an outsider now? When I do not recall anyone complaining so vehemently when I was one of them? All of you were pretty patient with me. And if you had something to say, said it to me personally. No one went behind my back and complained about me virtually condemning them to hell, or being exclusive, or preaching, or whatever I was doing. But now when I do the opposite, it's not acceptable? Why do Christians get so offended anyway?

Personally, I know it's because we/they hold Christ so personally. We think he's our best friend and groom even (Bible calls us the bride of Christ). So we fight as if you said something about our human friends when you attack the religion.

So I can understand. Been there, done that many times. I've also been in the place of being too embarrassed to confront the person because, honestly? didn't hear what the person wanted to say. On top of my own shyness.

But this is me, I don't bite.

Although I don't want to ride it into the ground, for sure. I think a mutual understanding has been reached? Because i can't withdraw my words, and haven't been asked to. Nor to refrain from them? At least that's how I read the most recent post!

I agree with Niki, I think we can focus this thread on Niki's relationship, as it was meant to be.

I do want to comment that the complaints we received were not solely about Niki's one post, but about several posts, and they involved both posts by Christians and posts by Atheists. The complaints were made by both Christians and by Atheists. This is NOT a religious based issue. It is a "how words affect people from different cultures" issue.

So, that being said, I'd like to have us focus on Niki in this thread because she needs our support. If people want to have a further meta-discussion about how words affect people from different backgrounds, we should start a fresh thread for that!

PDM and Carl have great points. There are many, many family groups out there where different members have different religious points of view. There are also family groups where different members are strongly Democratic and Republican! Yes, their views on issues are diametrically opposed. But they learn to agree to disagree. This is one of the most important skills a relationship team can possibly learn, and I know you two can do it!