Argyll I find that to be a very cynical way of shaping one's outlook on this particular topic. You seem very vexed about the whole thing.

What I should have said is that I respect my Muslim friends because they work hard and live up to their belief systems like very few people I know. They remind me of some Amish people that live down the road from me on the highway from whom I buy all of my hay from.

I certainly did not mean to put you on the fast trac to IslamoPhobia if that is in fact what I did. Simply put I am a history major thus the Middle East has been something that I have been studying for some time now. I enjoy sharing what I have learned though sometimes people don't like knowing many of the things that they hear.

I will tell you this though. You mentioned that "money makes the world go round" (paraphrased) and I see that in itself has become much more of a religion to many millions of Americans than anything else and this is a very, very scary thing to me because to me there is nothing more destructive than a person with nothing on his/her mind than the almighty dollar. It really is a disease and one that brother will kill brother over.

I agree about money. I make enough to support myself and have a couple extra bucks to put away. That's plenty. There really is plenty to go around if we all can stop wanting more than we actually need.

I don't understand the need for lots of dough or how it could possibly be worth killing over. And yes, that concept IS a very very scary thing.

Okay:

Janimal...yes, I disagree with you concerning the way Westerners fight over the way the Taliban fight. Technological weaponry affords us the ability to reduce the causalities on our side while inflicting maximum damage to the enemy. That's a good thing where doing battle is concerned. And even thought there is bound to be collateral damage...this is still a good thing.

Overall...I think that the west seeks specific strategic targets as well as obvious enemy strongholds when deploying technological weapons. There is bound to be collateral damage however.

I don't try to minimize collateral damage. The loss of life is horrible. And I don't distinguish between innocents and soldiers. It's all regrettable. But war is war, and losss of life is inevitable.

Where the opposition is concerned, I find it cowardly to hold up in civilian and religious buildings because they are off limits to attack from invading forces. So too is hiding behind a shield of civilians in order to carry out assaults and stock pile weapons.

I feel that knowing who the enemy is (visually) and taking them on toe-to-toe is a better way to proceed rather than hiding in civilian clothing and confusing things.

And, yeah...I find this cowardly.

I'm not an American, by the way. I'm Canadian.

Marko

Mongrel:

You may think I'm vexed - and perhaps I am - but I am tired of hearing about the Muslim perspective. I simply don't care.

What Muslims want...or think...or feel...matters as much to me as what anyone else wants, thinks or feels. It's all the same to me. Just because a group have a title, or believes "x" over "y" is of no interest to me. Who bloody cares?

We can all look for virtues in anyone and get all gooey over it. That is a matter of perspective. And perspective is influenced by many factors. Perspective can justify pretty much anything.

And regarding the "almighty dollar." I am simply stating the obvious. By saying that money makes the world go around I am just stating that on a macro level...the world is dominated by big business and big players. You and I just don't register globally. That's just the simple truth.

However, if you have single-handedly changed the world, or wrought global change with a handful of friends...please let me know. I am open to correction.

Like Margaret Mead, I do believe that a small group of committed individuals are actually what does change the world. Small, incremental change, baby steps, and long term commitment to a vision to make things better.

I know for example that many people start thinking more seriously about diverting their waste from the landfills just from knowing me. Every small individual change matters.

Argyll I understand that this is an opinion based discussion for that is really all it could be when you get right down to the nitty gritty. I respect your posts just as much as anybody and what Muslims want or think is simply limited to . . . well . . . . what their numbers can enforce. I live in the bible belt thus my professed mortality, and religious practice, could be viewed as just as large a threat to the fundamentalist rednecks all around me. I suspect that I have a tad more respect for the beliefs of others than someone whom believes in no God(s), or afterlife.

Let me scare you just a little more about Muslims. The Fundamental Nationalists in my area are always talking about "What-if" Sharia law was enacted when the Muslims take over? There is no meaning to the term, Sharia Law, and there is no policy governing this "Law". If we became a land of Islam then it would be up to the many different sects of Mufti's,Faqih's and Qadi's to determine the actual law of the land. It would be much like the middle ages all over again.

I will say this, for anyone to state that the almighty dollar makes the world go around then their perception of time is not just right because the world was spinning long before Mercantilism, Capitalism or even the barter system was created.

I don't think that it's that we dont 'register". Everyone has their disagreements.

Exactly.
And that is why we should all treat other people with respect.
We don't have to agree with them, but neither do we need to stir up animosity and ill-feeling.

Of course there are people in certain groups whom we may not respect, because they have lost that respect for some reason, but that does not mean that the entire group should be punished because of the bad behaviour of certain individuals.

I think that this preacher is a Christian fundamentalist, for whom other religions are simply heresy. When he sees that certain members of Islam have done things of which many people disapprove, he thinks that he can use that to rally support for his own religion and to condemn the 'heresy'.

Thus, the frightening behaviour of certain Islamic fundamentalists is used as evidence that the whole of Islam is bad, compared, of course, to Christianity which is 'wonderful'.

But there are Christian terrorists, too, and there are peace-loving Muslims.

And if he is burning the Qu'ran because he feels that it incites violence, then he should re-read his Bible and consider how much violence could be incited by a copy of that in the wrong hands.

I condemn all unnecessary violence, but one has to look at matters from all sides if we are ever to sort out the cultural and religious hatred which exists in this world.

We should look at the reasons why ill feeling exists and try to sort it out ~ not with violence or aggressive language and behaviour, but by trying to understand one another.

But if most Muslims are non-violent, and I see no reason to think otherwise, then why is burning their holy book a good way to protest against violence?

And what about protesting against violence that Muslims suffer?

Or violence perpetrated by non-Muslims?

Wouldn't it be better to find out just how many Muslims are aggressive, or support aggression, and then find out why and how to deal with it, rather than stirring up racism and hatred where it is not deserved?

careful, pdm. people have been nailed to trees for that kind of talk.

Don't get me wrong.
There are things which I hear about, which do make me very angry ~ and I am human, so I respond emotionally ~ but looking at this objectively, I know that emotions can cause many problems, which logic may possibly help to solve.

What will burning a Qu'ran solve?
Nothing beneficial.
It will simply 'justify' the behaviour of any violent extremists; upset the peaceful people; possibly gain new extremists for the radical cause; put people in danger.

So what is the real point of it?
If it is to show condemnation of any violent aspects of extremist interpretations of Islam, then I can understand it, to an extent, but I cannot agree with it, because I think that they have misunderstood the big picture. Not all Muslims are violent, so it is not necessarily the Qu'ran, or Islam, that is the problem, it is more likely to be a multitude of things.

If it is to show how much violence is in the Qu'ran, and to encourage eveyone to think that the Bible is better, then perhaps they should look at how much violence is in the Bible.

Religious differences seem, often, to lead to hatred and violence, and this is a Christian church condemning Islam. I cannot help but think that it is religious extremism of behalf of Christianity that is the real focus of this, and not '9/11', which the preacher is using as an excuse / reason to stir up more trouble.

Perhaps I should clarify how I feel, because, of course I condemn terrorism, and there are other aspects of behaviour, of certain Muslim people, who seem to believe that they are following Islam as it should be followed, which I also condemn.

For example, some Muslims believe that honour punishments, including killing, are morally right. Is that because of their religion, or their culture? Can the two be disentangled? Certainly, other devout Muslims do not behave that way, so there must be more to it.

It is complex.

It is to do with the negative experiences that some of them, or their families, have endured.
It is to do with education and cultural background.
It is to do with the human influences that they have experienced.
It is to do with racism and religious bigotry that they may have encountered.

I have complained, on here, about things that I see and hear in Britain that concern me. I am concerned when I hear some men on television or radio stating that Britain is an Islamic country; I am concerned that I cannot see some women's faces when I walk down the street; I am concerned that many outlets sell hahal meat without the general populace knowing what they are buying; I am concerned that girls (and boys) here suffer forced marriage and 'honour' punishments; I am concerned that in some areas they feel that the police have no right to go down their streets; I am concerned that young people are being lured into terrorism; I am concerned when I discover that some doctors in our hospitals may also be terrorists. I am also concerned that the Archbishop of Canterbury supports the introduction of Sharia law into Britain.

But our family has been treated by numerous decent doctors, who are Muslims, and we have worked with, studied with and lived by very pleasant friendly Muslims. Two very nice ladies I knew wear veils. One of my closest friends is a lovely open-minded Muslim lady with friends who belong to various religions.

Yes, some families seem to want to change Britain in ways that many find frightening, but many people settled here because they are reasonably happy with Britain as it is ~ though some may have suffered, and been affected by, racism.

And the authorities and police are dealing with bahaviour that may be criminal, and to which they once seemed to turn a blind eye, so things in that area will, hopefully, improve.

I have many concerns but does burning a copy of the Qu'ran deal with any ot them?
Would it help anything at all?
It would be inflammatory ~ inflammatory to all Muslims, not just the ones who may commit crimes.
I cannot see how it can do any good at all.
We live side by side ~ we have to integrate and get to know each other. We have to get rid of the hatred and suspicion.
Burning copies of the Qu'ran certainly will not help with understanding and integration.

I agree that there are problems, and I keep saying that something has got to be done about them, but not this. This will just cause further problems.