This is a response to many of the previous posts and the title.
Are you a moderator?

You forgot to add the part where you state its merely your opinion that what I said is naive. See since we rotate the sun, and not you - maybe that was for others to consider as well ? Isnt that what a forum is about?


How is stating islam as an unmolested doctrine of thought a gross misinterpretation of current events? Justify, explain - dont just claim.


Did you know that islam was never meant to be a religion? So before you cry about the wide range of philosophies in ANY religion from Jainism to Zoroastrianism - did you know the word religion is not found in the quran...but the words 'deen' and 'iman' are used repetitively - which mean faith and belief. I hope you are bright enough to see the contrast between those two and religion.

A few big mistakes in your post; there are religions on earth that are not manipulated and not in pursuit of any worldly power or control at all.

Please do not make such broad statements like "THERE IS NO RELIGION ON EARTH WHICH IS NOT.." because THAT is naive.

Its a fact, there is no new testament or old testament of the Quran, I stated that was a reason it is being targeted world wide. A more accurate, revealing and raw spiritual, historical, and scientific script - not watered down by Konstantine and co such as the bible (NT) was. In apparent contrast to you, I understand that is merely my opinion.


If you were prepared to stop making naive assumptions about ALL religions - maybe you could do some constructive research and speak out of knowledge.


Next time - when you come across a post that seems irrelevant to you, posting a less than thought our reply will warrant another 'naive' 'misinterpretation' which is referred to by those with knowledge as opinion and its not for everyone.

[quote=Akhenaten]I am not a prolific member, nor am I familiar with any of the posters here; so I will try to keep polite in contrast to some of the posts I have read on here.[/quote] Hi Akhenaten and welcome. If you think that any posts are impolite to the extent that they break rules, please send a moderator alert. :) You seem to be angry with some members for their opinions. [quote] ... Anyone who knows the subjects of these books and religions can see that they are ALL Abrahamic monotheistic belief systems and related.[/quote] Yes, that's right. I think that many members know this because it ['the people of the book'] has been discussed before. [quote]In the book known as the Qur'an, there are more references and praises of Jesus Christ than there are to and of he whom the message was revealed to (Muhammad), so for a man claiming to represent a church, or Jesus himself - this is an ignorant, under-read and misinformed move very typical of 1st world, technological age, Caucasian, north Americans.[/quote] This is a bit of a generalisation ~ and, as I said, I think that these are rarely helpful, even if, sometimes, apparently, true. No fundamentalist Christrian is going to say that Islam and the Qu'ran are correct. Liberal Christians may show them respect, but they see Jesus Christ as God incarnate, not as an Islamic prophet, so the fact that Islam respects Jesus Christ, or Abraham, isn't really relevant to this preacher. He believes that Islamic beliefs are, quite simply, wrong, and that those who follow them are being deluded by the devil and led away from the path of righteousness and salvation. [quote] ...a man who cannot state the obvious due to political correctness is not pure.[/quote] I do not understand what you mean by this. [quote]Furthermore the Quran ... reads 'this book is a confirmation of your scriptures, people of the book (those who practice Judaism / follow the Torah or old testament and Christians who should follow the gospels)[/quote] Yes, but Christians do not accept this. Islam. like Christianity, has given us beautiful books and architectures, learning, hospitals, refuge, etc, but, unfortunately, there are, and have been, powerful religious movements ~ Christian, Muslim ad other ~ which have caused, and intended, harm to many. [quote]On a second note the Quran fiercely condemns any abuse, murder, assault, insulting or anything of the sort. The word Islam actually means 'peace' or similar in Arabic.[/quote] Yes, I have heard this, too, but there are parts of it which have been interpreted to mean something much less peaceful and positive ~ just as there are in the Bible, indeed. [quote]So once you understand this, you realize that those popularly categorized as extremist terrorist muslims (oxymoron) is about as ignorant as referring to Timothy McVeigh as a catholic priest, or even an exemplary Christian.[/quote] Yet these people claim to be devout Muslims. Who am I ~ or you ~ to say that they are not? Other Muslims may say that they are not 'real Muslims', but they, in turn, may say that the Liberals are not 'real Muslims'. Who decides? And one cannot describe Timothy McVeigh as a Catholic priest unless he was one. Was he? I read that he was a lapsed Catholic. [quote]Do you see the motive yet? Could it perhaps be defacing a 1500 year old religion for whatever reason.[/quote] As we have pointed out on this thread, already, much evil has been done on behalf of religions and much evil is done to others by different religions. We know that followers of Islam have suffered and are still suffering. [quote]The only thing I ask, as an open researcher of ancient religions, please do not try to justify the book by the people or vice versa. Want to speak on the topic honestly, and not out of speculation of misinformation? Do your homework.[/quote] Most of us have done a fair amount of 'homework'. The person who wanted to burn the Qu'ran is, I think, ignorant. I believe that he has not read it, or compared it to the Bible. However, he has followers who see Islamic terrorism and who want to make a stand. This was their stand. Book burning always received attention. [quote]Terrorism was birthed by the Allies of the UK, Israel and the USA.[/quote] Really? I think that there has always been 'terror' when different people battle with one another. Power and land have often been motives ~ but religion is often in there somewhere. [quote]... it is obvious to myself and many in the theology field that Islam is one of the few remaining pure religions on earth and the only Abrahamic religion UNTOUCHED and UNEDITED by man.[/quote] But the Quran has been interpreted and different groups have emerged. And I am not convinced that any religion is 'pure'. People fear change and difference ~ that is a factor. [quote]I will leave you on this note. Heinrich Heine — referring to the burning of the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an, during the Inquisition — wrote, "Where they burn books, so too will they in the end burn human beings." [/quote] Probably right.

I'm not sure what Janimal meant, but you say that Islam represents peace, yet we see a number of quite powerful Islamic groups, who do not seem to seek peace, so, somewhere this ideal has been 'molested', it seems.


Does the word 'religion' appear in any / many 'sacred' tomes?
I do not think that it is used in the Bible.

Most Christians I know claim not to be 'religious' ~ they do not use or like the word. They would probably prefer 'faith' and 'belief'.

I think that this seems unnecessarily impolite.

Christianity and Islam are classified as 'world religions'. Their members may have 'faith' and 'beliefs' ~ but they belong to what is defined as 'religions' ~ even if they do not approve of the term.


No, the Quran is not the Bible, and those who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God will not approve of the Quran.
While Muslims and the Qu'ran may respect the Bible, they do not acknowledge it as the 'word of God'.

There is, therefore, bound to be disagreement between these two movements.

Plus, I think that there is likely to be some kind of power struggle. This may be partly to blame for the plan to burn a Qu'ran ~ but it is not the whole story.

People fear change.
People fear 'others' ~ especially if they move to their lands and try to change them.
People fear that Sharia law, etc, will be brought into Europe.
Some people are beginning to feel like aliens in their own towns and this is causing a lot of the upset, anger, resentments, etc.
And people are tribal, so they stick with their own and are suspicious of those who are different ~ a root of racism.

Europeans, as we know, have taken over and changed other people's lands for centuries. Most now admit that this was wrong, of course.


The Bible has changed, certainly, but that does not mean that the Quran is an 'accurate, revealing and raw spiritual, historical, and scientific script'.

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If this conversation is to continue, could it please proceed in a more polite and friendly manner in future.
Thank you!

am i a moderator - no i'm not, thats why it doesn't say moderator next to my avatar (which doesn't look like the kind of avatar a moderator would use). glad we got that cleared up. did i forget to mention that i was stating my opinion? no i didn't, because most people here seem to realise that what i for example write here is my opinion. it is not the opinion of the pope, peter griffin or the righteous prophet. would you feel better if each post contained a disclaimer along the lines of 'the statements contained herein are only the opinions of the authour'?

ok - let me know when you've taken that in and finished putting your toys back in the pram. i never called your post irrelevant, i just wanted more clarity in the context.

islam is quite typical of what i was talking about in that it contains all the dichotemies and polariasations you will find in a faith where people justify widely differing views by the same 'holy' texts. you will find muslims who find suicide bombing and stoning of women abhorrent and you will find muslims who find liberalism just as abhorrent. its all ideas manipulated by human interpretation, like just about any faith and ethos applied to the masses. people have always cherrypicked from holy books.

islamic extremism was born in iran. iran had the first democratically elected president in the muslim world, bp didn't like him and the british and americans clubbed together and put a bullet in him. he was replaced by the shah, who was an idiot. he was kicked out in the revolution, which was quite cleverly run by the ayatollah khomeini. khomeini understood how religious fundamentalism can be applied to consolidate a people and galvanise the revolutionary movement into an immovable front, which still persists today, thanks to the willing hysteria of the unthinking masses. if that isn't the manipulation of religious doctrine for power and control then i don't know what is. the text in the q'ran may not be edited (large question mark) but it makes no difference because its interpretation most certainly was. it amounts to much the same result as constantines abridgement of the bible, which was intended to ensure the roman powerbase for many years to come. and it still does. similarly the zionists hold up the bible to prove the 'purity' of their lineage and their claim to what god apparently promised them, but its nothing but racism and exclusivity.

the editing question aside, the q'ran was implicitly written with agendas of power and control. it is very explicit about the lesser rights of women compared to men and the place of unbelievers in the food chain. to my mind that is the kind of thing which faiths need to interpret their way around to make them relevant in a civilized society, so i would even argue that editing and interpretation are essential. however, when people hold up such rules of inequality as the unbendable word of god or whoever then i say they can shove it where the sun don't shine.

i don't really care whether the q'ran contains the word religion (the word isn't old enough and has a latin root not an arabic one). neither do the torah (no equivalent word in hebrew)or bible (the word ain't old enough), but then they are all pretty much versions of the same book, and none include words like mysogeny, chauvenism, abuse of hieraichal power, genocide and subjugation, but these are parts of the reality of all three faiths as they stand today and back over the centuries.

buddhists and hindhus both have plenty of blood on their hands to which a brief glance at indian history will attest. zoroastrians jainists and bahai's all believe in the idea of a just war (by their definition) and all three have been guilty of plenty of religious violence of some form or other. sometimes in self defence, yes, but violence is violence. taoism is deeply woven into pol pots political philosophies and is increasingly associated with anarchist (clueless idiots) uprisings. do i have to go on?

thing is, the worlds religions are full of good ideas which are ruined and perverted as soon as people get their hands on them. and all religions contain priestly elites of some description. power and control.

a little word about being patronised. i have done my homework. i have done so much homework i cannot be bothered to itemise. i've picked my way through numerous religious texts mythologies and holy books and none of them are worth the paper they are written on as far as i'm concerned. infact i've had it up to here with homework because the more i learn about religion the more i lose my faith in humanity. and as much as i have tried to see and argue for the possible benefits of religion - quite fervently at times, i increasingly lean toward thinking its all got to go, because none of it will ever save mankind from itself. if you want to improve the world, pull your head out of the clouds, stop talking to imaginary friends, and stop using ancient texts to justify abhorrent evils. only then can you roll your sleeves up and really get s**t done which needs to get done. religion will never end subjugation and poverty, because it is too bust perpetuating them.

i have made it my business to make sure that my opinions are very well informed, and i have honed them by bouncing them off equally well informed people, like many on this forum, and stuck with the ideas which seem to gain the most respect from people who seem to know their onions. when i see i am proved wrong i wind my neck in, but that doesn't mean i will stand back and be treated like a 12 year old troll. i have seen many people with your arrogance come and go. mostly go. treat me with respect and i will return it. don't and i'll return that too.

it's more than ironic that you have chosen as your forum name the name of a pharaoh who turned egyptian religion on its head and reinvented it to give himself more power and control. yeah, akhenaten was kinda tolerant at first, but it didn't last. his diversion of funds away from traditional temples and reinvention of religion went down so badly that much of his work was expunged from egyptian political and religious life within a generation.

the above words are only the opinion of the author and should not be viewed as though written in stone. they should therefore not inspire any dummyspitting or hissy fits.

pdm - high five.

Akhenaten, Please let me be the first to apologize to you for any insult that I may have intruded upon you or the Holy Book of Muhammad ibn 'Abdull, peace and blessings be upon him. The Quran is like you said a book of peace misinterpreted by many "fundamentalists" to be their guidebook for revenge for the Jewish Bloodletting(Damascus Bloodletting of 1840) of their peers or the massive atrocities inflicted by the United States upon the Muslim Holy Lands or perhaps the cheating of so much land from Muslim farmers in the early twentieth century in Jerusalem and Palestine, or perhaps the largest, most populated prison territory in the history of the world what we now call the Gaza Strip where Muslims are killed like cattle, or perhaps the theft of Arab and Muslim territory by oil and mineral companies over the past century. I understand and defend the Muslim Position but for some reason do not share the same scorn for the Monotheism shared by Muslims with Christians, and Jews. Perhaps it is because I can relate to the history of abuse on such a proud and productive people for whom without the Sciences, Alchemy and Architecture brought about by these people modernity just would not be possible. While the Catholic Church set upon it’s perch and sniped any chance of scientific advancement (for fear that the poor may be enlightened to the great lie) the Muslim sought out knowledge and taught in the schools and allowed public and private fortunes to be spent on progress. I believe that all Muslims have a right to defend what they have, or rather what they have left just as any state or territorial majority has but it needs to happen in a war not in a crowded urban street mind you that whatever the world thinks Muslims did not “invent” terrorism thus The King David Hotel Bombing which actually led to the paralyzation of the Muslim Public and the actual reason why the state of Israel was pushed through all perpetrated by Jewish Zionist Terrorists. You are welcome here. Peace and blessings be upon you.

And now:

'The 15-year-old was questioned and bailed by detectives last Friday after the alleged incident at a school in the Sandwell area of the West Midlands.'

guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 November 2010
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/25/girl-arrested-suspicion-burning-quran

Whereas I think that a religious leader should have thought more carefully about his actions, I am not so sure that a 15 year old child can have the same criticism made about her.

It is interesting that I read that this burning occurred around the same time as this:


'Muslim demonstrators provoked fury on November 11th after burning a poppy just as Britain fell silent to honour war dead.'

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/847000-musli...d#ixzz16JK37zIV

Also:

'Event appears to have been inspired by Florida pastor Terry Jones'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39323837/ns/world_news-europe

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You can find out more here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-black-country-11835253

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/bri...cebook/19733355

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...rning-hate.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/l...ay-protest.html

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/300144

This is probably relevant, too:
http://justifythis.blogspot.com/2006/12/australia-muslim-students-urinate-spit.html

see, thats the hysteria of the unthinking masses i keep talking about.

the poppy thing is interesting. it does seem appropriate that the muslim world want to remember their dead in their own way, especially in light of the past 40 years or so, but burning a poppy....

i used to have the impression that the poppy thing was more about the world wars (allied casualties of course), which has a more indioret connection to the current problems of the middle east; although in recent years there has always been much talk about the fallen in afghanistan and iraq.

one way or another remembering your dead by disrespecting the enmies dead doesn't suggest anything but intransigence.

And if one group burns the poppy, can we not expect the other group to burn the Qu'ran?

After all, we are talking about the ordinary people here, not philosophers.

yeah, but the trouble is that deeper thinkers will read into the unthinking actions of others, and before you know it the touchpaper is lit. never an excuse for stupidity and shortsightedness.

regarding the q'ran being an unmolested doctrine - it is often claimed that the q'ran has been passed down unedited from muhammad. unsurprisingly this seems to be completely inaccurate. this site nicely sums up the consensus of what i've been reading for the past week or so:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/uthman.htm



not so different to constantine and the bible then. to summarize:



i was actually making a guess when i questioned whether the q'ran could be unedited. a guess informed by my knowlege of human nature and history, and the nature of power and control.

That is the one problem with certain theologies when they clash with the Muslim (and others). Certainly the Muslim values life, family, career and his worship more than any other "Faith". Certainly the Life of most Muslims is a trophy and a fine example of the former sentence however the one thing they place among every other aspect is the "Martyrs’ death" or a death worthy of their ancestors and their peers. In defense of their family, Faith, etc and here is where the power of the fundamentalists lye. For a new Muslim just starting to believe in the Faith there is a wide gap in the real understanding of the Holy Book of Muhammad ibn 'Abdull, peace and blessings be upon him and some of the alternate teachings of radical clerics who have come after him. The West has made the mistake of vilifying all Muslims and that is no better than what happened with the vilifying of all Japanese during and after WWII, or the Russian Vilification of all Tatars. I have my agreements with you both PDM and Janimal on this subject however these poor people feel very isolated and separated from the countries where they have done their share. These are of course just my opinions of course and since I consider you all my very dear friends I wish you a Happy and Bountiful Thanksgiving. I m going to go and stuff my face for the rest of the day at three places but then next week I start my daily fasting for Yule. May yours cups be full and your family be happy.