[quote]Originally posted by liv: [b] I have read almost all the discussion posted in this website and I like how Lisa always encouraged readers to think for themselves. Christians worship on Sunday because it is the day of triumph for all christians, for it is the day of resurrection of the Lord. The New Testament does not require that Christians worship on Saturday. The Old Testament system of Law required keeping the Sabbath by which the Jewish people fulfilled God’s requirements for behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to "remain" in favour with God, every Jewish person had to keep the Sabbath. If not, then the person had sinned and would often be punished. But with Jesus’ atonement, Christians no longer are required to keep the Law. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. They are not under obligation, by Law, to keep it. The importance of keeping the Sabbath is probably comparable to how God commanded the Jewish people to make animal sacrifices to show the seriousness of sin and how it needed to be atoned for in blood. Please correct me if any of my facts are wrong.. [/b][/quote]It is always interesting to read the differing views on the issue of Saturday vs. Sunday, especially the reasons that people now give for the change to Sunday. In the above quote by Liv, she noted several things of which I would like to comment on… [i]Liv: “Christians worship on Sunday because it is the day of triumph for all Christians, for it is the day of resurrection of the Lord.”[/i] My response: Although this line of reasoning is convincing and sounds really good, may I ask that it be considered very carefully? Is it a Biblical position? I dare to say that it is not. Nowhere in the NT do we find this line of reasoning, or any command for a change to Sunday from Saturday. If you know of such a command, please share it with us. And by the way, I know of people who are willing to pay thousands of dollars to those who can produce such a command. To conclude, this line of reasoning is a man-made reason to keep Sunday instead of Saturday, not a Biblical reason. People are always looking for a way to justify disobedience with the commands of men. It is good reasoning, just not Biblical. [i]Liv: “The New Testament does not require that Christians worship on Saturday.”[/i] My response: The OT did require that Saturday be kept as the Sabbath. The NT seems to be somewhat quiet on this matter, as there is no direct command such as we find in the OT, but we must also consider that there is something that is often not considered…we do not find any command to keep Sunday either. The silence of the Bible on this matter is simply a way of saying that there is no command for any such change, therefore, the old command still exists. Something else to consider… Saturday was commanded (called the 7th day), commanded by God for us to keep holy. In order for this command to cease, one of two things must happen, either God must command a change of the day, or He must tell us that we are released from this command. Neither has happened, therefore, the command remains. The silence of the NT is strong evidence indeed. [i]Liv: “But with Jesus’ atonement, Christians no longer are required to keep the Law. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus.”[/i] My response: In the book of Malachi, we find that God does not change, yet many people want us to believe that God changed His law. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (keep) it. Yet many say the law was done away with. In essence, they are saying the verse says this: “I did not come to destroy the law, but to destroy it.” Does that make any sense? Also…if the law no longer applies to Christians, then we don’t need a savior. Sin is the transgression of the law (quoted below), and if the law doesn’t apply to us, then we have no sin. If we have no sin, we don’t need a savior. Somehow, this very important point is overlooked by convincing words, words that people want to hear, yet words that they do not compare to the Bible for truth. Let’s look at Liv’s statement a bit more closely. Let’s look at the purpose of the law & let’s see what the Bible says: Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not. Notice the importance the Bible puts on keeping the commandments, and I didn’t even quote all of the verses, just enough to make the point. Also notice the three verses in Revelation. Have the commandments of God been changed? No. Also note that I quoted Mal 3:6, God does not change. As for the purpose of the law, law tells us what sin is. It doesn’t cleanse us, only the blood of Jesus can do that, but the law tells us what our sin is, and sends us to Christ. The Sabbath is one of those 10 Commandments. The one and only commandment that begins with the word remember, is the one commandment that lots of people want us to forget. Another point that is lost by those that wish to say the Sabbath command has been done away with is…if sin is the transgression of the law, then people will have to be judged differently in the OT & NT if the Sabbath has been dropped. Those that broke the Sabbath in the OT will have a strong case in the judgment when they point out that those in the NT didn’t have to keep it. They will ask “why is it a sin for me, and not for them?” And this will indeed be a very valid question, one which I dare say that any answer given would not be fair. Now let’s consider the last line I quoted above from Liv…“The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus.” How can a holy day be fulfilled by the death of Christ? Again, on the surface, this line of reasoning appears to be good, but once considered, is not very logical, nor is it Biblical. Does the obedience of Christ release us from obedience? 1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Then so should we! The Lord gave us a day, he set it apart just for us, a day to rest, and a day to worship, a day to spend with our families and with Him...a day He set aside just for man, a day with a promise of blessings if we keep it...yet man wants to do away with the blessing. I say that the enemy has done a great job of deceiving man into thinking the Sabbath is a burden instead of a blessing as intended by God. What a shame that man has bought into this lie. Rejoice!

Welcome Rejoice.

I was wondering about that, actually, and your response does seem logical.

I am not saying that I believe this, necessarily, but that it seems to make logical sense.

Would you care to share with me what you do believe in these matters?


Rejoice!

I believe that Jews keep Saturday as the Sabbath because their culture and history leads them to believe that that is what God wanted.

I believe that Christians keep Sunday as the Sabbath because they feel that Sunday became the more special day because they believe in the Resurrection.

The ultimate beginnings of life, the universe and everything, including humanity, are something of a mystery to us, but experts believe that we descend from ape-like creatures - and before there were modern humans, there were earlier types of human (Neanderthalensis, Heidelbergensis, etc).

Accordingly, the Genesis story makes little sense to me - and that includes the idea of the 7th day of rest. I also think that there must be more - or less - to the story of the Resurrection than we are told, so, while I think we all need a day of rest, I'm not convinced that either Saturday or Sunday was particularly chosen for us by God.

Do you say this because you think we cannot know which day on our calender is the day chosen by God as the 7th day, or because of your comment that resting on the 7th day makes little sense to you?

Regarding your comment of Christians keeping Sunday because of the resurrection, you are correct, many do say that this is their reason, but as I mentioned in my previous reply, it is not a Biblical position, but rather a position chosen by some as "their good reason" for switching the day from the 7th day to the 1st day.

Your latter comment is what makes sense - as I said before - based on the Biblical view.

Which day was the original sabbath - ie God's day of rest - is one that I think would be impossible to know, but, as Lisa said, if Jesus is God incarnate then he should know and he presumably agreed with Saturday.

As someone else said on another thread, beginnings and endings of days have 'overlapped' through history, so maybe there has been a Saturday / Sunday overlap which might be relevant. I don't know.

These are all points which could be argued over by anyone, I think. For my own part, since I consider the Genesis story of creation to be mythological / allegorical / unrealistic, then I cannot logically see how God - whoever / whatever 'God' may be - decided upon and ordered a 'Sabbath Day'.

Resting, and socially bonding, one day per week, makes a lot of sense to me; it's the Genesis story which makes little sense to me.

I think that it was put together by tribal elders, in an attempt to explain the inexplicable and to arrange some kind of social order. They may well have thought that their inspiration came from God.

If you search the forum for 'Genesis', you will see that we have had similar discussions before. Here are just a few of the threads:

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000136#000000
Topic: Adam & Eve

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000108#000000
Topic: Genesis 2 & 3: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000015#000011
Topic: Eve and the Apple

I have only had a little time to read other threads on this forum since I am new here...at this point, it appears to me that you do not believe in God, but agree with the theory of evolution, am I correct? I ask because it helps me tailor my responses based on your actual position rather than my assumption of your position. I would hate to reply and be wrong about your beliefs. Anything you care to share with me at this point will certainly help.

Based on what little I have read of your comments in other threads, I perceive the following:

* You do not believe in God.
* You seem to agree with the theory of evolution.
* It appears that you have either read the Bible, or part of it and disagree with some things...or...
you have read some websites or books where others have put forth their personal problems with the Bible and you stand with them...or...both.

.......
I have had many discussions with lots of people who fall into the above categories. Some of those were people who have said "if there is a God, and the Bible is true and accurate, well...I definitely would like to know since my eternal future is a risk, but for now, I just have trouble believing the Bible and in God."

While others have said "I am an atheist and there is nothing you can say or do that will change my position, but I do enjoy watching you waste your time trying."

One guy even was bold enough to say the last quote and added "I am going to try to keep you busy answering my questions and comments so that you can't converse with others...my mission is to make Chrisitians miserable."

I also have a friend who is an atheist, but he thoroughly enjoys discussing the Bible. He knows more about it than some Christians do. He is a real pleasure to talk with because he is up front and honest about his stance, and he is very respectful of my beliefs, and his questions are sincere. He and I have spent countless hours discussing the Bible, and we both have enjoyed it.

It is when people like to play word games and mind games that I withdraw from the conversation...just to let you know where I stand. I have had lots of conversations with atheists, and I don't/won't play the silly games that a lot of them like to play. Not trying to be mean or nasty, I just don't enjoy spending my time with people like that.

I was reading one thread yesterday, and sadly, it appeared that you were playing a little bit with the lady you were conversing with...if I get the feeling that you are anyone here is doing that with me, I will just quit replying to your postings. Again, I am not trying to be nasty...I just want everyone to know up front where I stand...and I hope my perceptions from yesterday were wrong...I only had time to read two pages, so a definite conclusion is out of line at this point...just relaying my feelings at this moment...no offense intended, I believe in laying my cards on the table, I am point blank and to the point...but most importantly, I never intentionally say anything to hurt anybody's feelings. If you ever feel that I have done so, please say so that we may correct the misunderstanding. Because I am so direct at time, people have been offended, and that was never my intent. I believe in open communication.

My position...I love to discuss the Bible with anyone who desires to do so, but...that is providing their reasons are noble. I have one rule in life, and that is "respect" comes first. I will not waste my time on people who cannot or will not show respect. I have a warm and very loving heart and love to share it & Jesus with others!

So tell me...what do you hope to achieve from these conversations? And what are you searching for from life? Many people say that they search for love, joy, and peace in life...how about you?


Rejoice!

Hi Rejoice. You have me wondering now.
What on earth do you refer to when you talk about mind games and word games? What thread are you talking about?

This is a discussion forum and I take part in it because I like to discuss interesting subjects. I like to argue the logic of my point of view and listen to what others have to say. Where are the mind games? You really have me baffled!

I am not an atheist. I consider myself to be a seeking agnostic. I have read a fair amount of the Bible, but certainly not all. I have been discussing and reading about theological matters since I was a child. It is a subject that has always fascinated me. Those who have been on the forum for some time will have read about all this before.

I have explained my thoughts on the Bible elsewhere, so, again, this will be repetitive for some people, but anyway ..

I believe that the Bible is a mixture of history, mythology, religious belief, allegory, explanations of the inexplicable, etc, etc. I think that some of it may be true, some part-true and some made up.

I think that it is impossible to really know whether or not God exists, and, if God does exist, it would be very difficult to be sure just exactly what 'God' is or wants, etc.

I do not consider that the Bible can be used as evidence of very much at all, yet it is the main source of information on God, so that is a problem in itself.

I know that many people have experiences that might be termed supernatural, so it would be wrong to dismiss all religious belief. However, how much of what the church teaches about God is correct is debatable, in my opinion.

Similarly, the expectation that we should believe the Bible and that we should consider it to be the word of God seems too much to me. There is no real logic to much of the Bible, in my opinion, and so no real logic in accepting it.

I do believe in evolution but I think that there is still much that is not known.

Much of this is only relevant to this thread as background to my thoughts on the Sabbath. I think the story of how God made the world is allegorical. Therefore, I think that the part about the Sabbath is something inserted by whoever originally devised that part of the story - someone way back in the mists of time.

Did God create the world as described in Genesis? I think that that is unlikely. Did a master energy / intelligence / power / creator somehow create life, the universe and everything? Perhaps. I don't know. I don't think anyone can. I know that some people do believe the Bible is 100% truth, literally. That is their right and I respect it, but it does not make sense to me and so I cannot agree with it. We have threads where the two sides have been argued at length.

However, for those who do believe in the bible and in the truth of genesis it seems only logical
that they should still accept the Sabbath as (they believe) chosen by God, rather than as changed by the church.

I don't think that I am easily offended and I have absolutely no intention of upsetting or offending anyone, but sometimes it seems impossible not to, when discussing religion. The rules do state that people should not take matters personally, but I know that this can be difficult at times.

does god care what day of the week it is? does he care which building you're sitting in? i don't think he'd give a badgers proverbials as long as you manage to be a decent human being. what is this - teletubby land?

Hello...

Two responses...I will response to janimal first since it is so short!

You asked..."does God care what day of the week it is?"

Good question? Look at the sentence closely...think about substituting the word "day" with any other command God has given. The point is...many Christians think that since Christ died on the cross, somehow we are no longer to live in obedience to God's word. Sin is transgression of God's law, and sin separates us from God. Sin is the reason we die, and will be the reason that many will forfeit eternal life in heaven. Yet, many Christians think that they can live like the devil and get into the kingdom of God.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
These verses are dealing directly with the issue of obedience & disobedience to the will of God, to His word.

Let's look at your question again..."Does God care what day of the week it is?"

Now...go back to the Garden of Eden for a minute...God gave a simple command, do not eat from that ONE TREE...did He care which tree? I mean, come on now, what difference does a tree make? The difference...God commanded it, they broke the command, therefore, sin entered into the world by the actions of Eve. "Which tree" really mattered...and if God commands a certain day, I dare to say it matters just as much as the tree did.

Now for the last half of your response...
"Being a decent human being" is easy to do, many non-Christians are decent humna beings, I have many in my own family, but they are not Christians. They will not enter into heaven by their own good works. Our good works are as filthy rags according to the Bible. There is non righteous, no not one. So what is important, and what is the real issue here? The issue is "do we have a relationship with Christ, and have we accepted Him as our Savior? If so, then we are covered by His righteousness and forgiven of our sins. We are filled with His Holy Spirit and given the power to walk in obedience because of this relationship. We will never enter into heaven by trying to do it on our own, we need the help of Jesus! We must surrender our sinful life to Him and let Him change us, let Him give us a new heart, a heart that would rather die than sin.

So..to say "does God care what day of the week" is also to say "does God care if we are disobedient?" What do you think? I think He does?


Rejoice!