I've put together a new page about Eve and the Apple here -

http://www.lisashea.com/hobbies/art/eveapple.html

What do you think? Was it really the Forbidden Fig? Was it unfair of God to give his two brand new baby creations one test only to judge if they were capable of handling life in paradise? If they didn't have the capacity to choose between good and evil (not having eaten from the tree yet) how can they be punished for how they make that choice based on what God has set up as their environment?

This is from my friend, Liz:

There was no apple. The tree was of the "knowledge" of good and evil.
Without that knowledge, one lives in paradise.

When Eve was tempted, it took a long, long time. What God said to Adam and
Eve is quite different from what Eve spewed out when the devil questioned
her. This is one of those places that justifies some time because it
contains real life lessons. Frequently, these lessons are incorporated into
stories like this and are not so obvious.

Finally, note that Adam was not tempted. He walked right into it with his
eyes wide open. This is the reason that a Messiah was required.

Well if there was no apple, why would there have been a tree of knowledge.
It's all symbolic I think.
Was it fair of God? Maybe, maybe not.
It was a test however. It was forbidden to eat, they disobeyed. They did not listen to God and for that they were punished (quite harshly I might add )
The fact that it was Eve that was seduced is because the bible was wirtten by men in my opinion.

My friend sent me more notes, I'll have to track them down and post them. But the gist is that that fruit was never said to be an apple. She ate a *fruit* but it wouldn't likely be an apple based on all we know of Eden.

But if they had no knowledge of good and evil, how would they have known it was not good to listen to the snake? How could they know it was good to listen and not good to not listen? If God created us with free will, what kind of a free will is it if he says "you must make this choice"?

Actually Liz's point is that Eve had to be seduced - she would not do it willingly. But Adam did it *knowing* it was bad without any seduction. Eve said "want a bite?" and he said "sure thing!" So in the world of faults, his was greater.

Related to what Liz remarked about paradise, are children born knowing 'good and evil'? And it has been written that Jesus related that 'one can enter heaven only as a child.' The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, having given one's self dominion over life, is feeling like a god. Such dominion has been the grief of civilizations ever since the warning was written. Humankind is not wise enough to be making such judgements; judging something to be evil puts limitations on compassion. Did Jesus have any such limitations?

I think in fact children are born tainted with original sin, aren't they, and baptism washes this away? Some churches say that children who die unbaptised are then doomed to eternal damnation, a concept I always found very upsetting.

Jesus being divine I think was "above" good and evil, just as God is - Jesus is a part of the trinity, not a separate component. So I think we're supposed to accept anything Jesus did as "good" It's like the scene where Jesus goes out harvesting on a Sunday, something that was explicitly forbidden in the past by God. But when asked about it, Jesus said "It's ok, there's an exception because we are hungry". And he was not thought to be "wrong" or bending the truth, people just said "Oh this is the new truth because Jesus speaks with the voice of God".

I'll get Liz to come join in, she has spent years studying the Bible and knows it far better than I could possibly. I had a few years of Catholic school when I was a tyke but pretty much gave it all up in my teens

I have to just slightly disagree here with a few things. First, Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden, were like children. They didn't have to work much - the ground brought forth fruit without work. But, they had little growth. The Serpent (Lucifer, the Devil, the fallen star) didn't fully understand God's plan - he knew only that Adam and Eve would be kicked out of the garden if they at the fruit, whatever it was. So, he worked on Eve, trying to "tempt" her to take the fruit. But, Eve didn't have to fall for it. She was given the intuition to understand things better. Adam and Eve were stunted in the garden - they had no progression. They couldn't have kids, they didn't know the value of work, etc. But, they also didn't know what would happen if they left the garden - Eve, the wife, as in many families today, took the step of faith - she ate the fruit, knowing they would have to leave the garden, and knowing that was best for their "eternal" progression, and then Adam followed her - he was convinced by her. So they left the garden, and began to learn and progress. This was all part of God's plan in the beginning; he was not suprised by this and his plan wasn't foiled by Eve. Rather, it was followed. He provided a Savior, as he knew would be necessary, in order to make it possible for the steps out of the garden to lead to progression in the end, of all mankind.

There's a lesson here - are you in your own Garden? It's a comfortable place, you know where things are, and you understand the routines. But, you can't achieve spiritual (or physical, or mental) growth without taking a few steps out of the bright, happy, easy garden and into the darkness by faith. God will light the way for you eventually, and you will be able to progress, provided the steps you take are carefully and prayerfully considered. Keep in mind - after you leave your garden, you will learn and grow. You will plant some new seeds and they will flower. Eventually, your new place will turn into the garden, and you will have to take a few more steps out of the garden, and repeat the cycle. It's about leaving our comfort zone.

There is tons more involved in the story of the Garden of Eden - lots more about the purpose and commandment of free agency, the full roll of the Savior in our lives, and actually the entire plan of salvation of God. But this is a basic point of the story.

But wait, God was disappointed in what happened. His plan was for Adam and Eve to stay in the garden, to slowly have kids, much as elves did. That was his plan, to live in eternal happiness, peace and harmony with his flock. But he wanted to make sure he didn't force this life on them, that they had a choice. And they chose life without his "parenting".

That is of course assuming there really is a God that is a giant parent wanting to rule our lives If we assume this is all just a parable to teach us about how to live our lives, then even so, I don't think the lesson is to disobey what people tell you in order to try things for yourself. That is probably the last thing the Church would advocate But again, let me find Liz to explain her research.

I'm so tempted to take this all back several Zillenium!! and ask the really big question: Why?
Why all this in the first place?
From the viewpoint that - let's say God Does exist ..
He's existed "forever".. but let's take it back a step,. to before the Earth, before "Creation" of any of this - God exists, He also has many (god)like beings around him - the same "race" or "species" whatever name you like to asign -
THEY exist - and have done for 'ever'... let's also now strip away all the "holy", all the "religious" wrappings WE have covered THEM in - what do we have? - a race of 'super' beings... "God" as the leader? ok... so what on earth would trigger the concept of creating a "universe", then creating flesh and blood physical beings to live there? why would you do it? don't think of Him and them as some devine entity(ies) - one you cannot question - He and they existed -zillions of milleniums before "we" were ever concieved - what were they all up to for all that time?
"and God created man in his likeness" - let's realise something here... this race of super beings were not pure and honest, and godlike, they had all the emotions and desires etc etc that we humans have today - all those emotions were very present in this "heavenly" race - else we would not have had "satan" and his followers rebel against God and his plan for mankind - this action was either one of a power struggle between god and satan.. or it was satan perhaps protesting against this creation of new life - much as we might do the same in the genetic labs around the world ? in creating us in his likeness - could this be not physical appearance - but psychologically - emotions, desires - personality... ?
but to take it back.. to the "time before" and wonder why?? now theres a question!
my heads spinning trying to imagine it all ~ and I'm losing the plot ~ ~ hope you get the basic idea behind what I'm saying.