The idea of "paradise" that is generally accepted sounds like everyone sitting around in the Garden being happy forever....la-de-da. Our religion thinks of paradise as an eternal progression, where you have things to learn and things to do. The fall is part of what we have to learn and do. We have to exercise our free agency, and CHOOSE to be good. Because no one is completely perfect, we had a Saviour provided for us.

The fall, the Saviour and our life here is all part of God's eternal plan, not a big screw-up of Eve. Do you really think a kind and loving God would let the future of every soul on Earth be affected by one act?

Hi Jerbear.
I can only assume that this question is directed at me, since it was me who was quoted.

And no, I don't think this at all. As I continued in my post, I think it is all allegorical. There could not have been an Adam or an Eve, not quite as written in the Bible, anyway.

I think this could be discussed in the 'religion' section, so I'll start a thread there.

3. The idea of paradise as commonly understood is more recent than most religions would be willing to admit. This is why Jesus is so adamant about it during his sermons: it was a relatively new concept, barring a few odd sects.

4. Ancient societies from before the date that Jaynes sets also have creation/fall myths.

Note that during the evolution of Homo-sapiens from our immediate precursors, we were unable to further increase brain size, because the skull would then be unable to pass the hips of a Labouring mother. In order to become more intelligent, we would have to increase the efficiency of the existing material. This was accomplished by the magnification of certain base reflexes, the most important being, IMO, the Gravitic/Levitic. The increased reflex activity acts to continually stimulate the cortex. The cost of this is that we live in a brain that can barely withstand it's own power, and suffer both the resulting psychic trauma, and the fierce, Lovecraftian repression designed to control it.

5. Imagine a nomadic hunter/gatherer tribe. Imagine this tribe finds a lush land with plentiful food. Imagine other tribes also want to move into the land, but it's simply so plentiful that all are content to share. Imagine explosive population growth; there is enough food for all. The people learn light agriculture, clearing away regular plants to sow the seeds of food-bearing plants. They don't need to put much effort into this, since they're well-fed enough anyway. Imagine the climate changes and food supplies decline. The people must now apply their agricultural techniques more intensely. The climate worsens further, and agriculture has become a backbreaking labor that is the main source of food. When the climate improves, the population expands even further, and the people still must work constantly to survive.

6. The %10 figure is rather arbitrary actually. The basic idea is that we don't use our brain to the fullest extent. I feel that this is correct.

7. The view on repression held by Freud seems rather inadequate. Thus I turn to that of the horror novelist H. P. Lovecraft.

To understand this:
http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/mountainsofmaddness.htm
http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/wallofsleep.htm

I've willingly stripped myself of the ability, repeated in all basic education of the first world, to condense a vast amount of information into a small sound bite, so I'm afraid you'll have to actually read these to know what I mean. I suggest copy-pasting to MS Word.

My son reads Lovecraft and discusses his work with me sometimes.

I've just read 'Beyond the Wall of Sleep'. Very interesting. Parts reminded me of 'The Celestine Prophecy'.

As we have discussed on another thread, I think there is a lot going on in our subconscious mind that we are not fully aware of.

I also think that at some stage something happened to make us different from other animals. This could be what the Bible calls 'eating from the tree of knowledge'.

Chaologician, could you explain what your beliefs or theories on all this are, as it isn't completely clear to me? Thank you.

8. What happened to make us different from other animals is Civilization. Other sorts of cultures tend not to hold such barbaric notions.

9. Re: Evolution. As I said, increased stimulation of the cortex by the lower regions of the brain. The intense energies this releases are the subject of most religions. You can see evidence of this in:

a) The over-active basal ganglia. These are a pair of nerve clusters set just below the frontal cortex. The activity of these clusters directly influences that of the frontal cortex. In attention deficit disorder, these are less active than normal for the species.

b) The "freezing" of the amygdala. This is an ancient region associated with basic fight/flight responses. In most humans, this is locked into a double-bind "freeze" response for the near-entirety of our waking lives.

c) The widening of the spine. This amounts to increased sensorimotor activity, and more "fuel" for basic reflexes in the subcortical regions. You have heard that physical activity can stimulate mental function?

This was posted over a month ago, but I'm intrigued. I'm Jewish, fairly well-read as far as Torah, Talmud, Tanakh stuff goes, and I don't recall this being the deal at all.

The thing that tips me off here is the use of the word "original sin" -- something we Jews have no truck with. The idea of "original sin" is an Augustinian conceit. The Genesis story for Jews isn't about blame or sin -- it's a "just so" story to explain why there's pain in childbirth and why the earth doesn't yield easily to the plow.

It's almost as if chaologician got the two religions momentarily confused. I would think that Sarah not experiencing pain in childbirth would be a Christian reading, not a Jewish one.

Wandering Jew, I'm intrigued.

We have some people on the forum who believe implicitly in the Bible - that everything in it is true, because it is the very word of God.

Others think that it might be inspired by God, and others again think that it is just a group of mythologiocal stories.

Personally, I think that it is a 'history' of a people, and, as with many histories, some is factual, some is based in fact and some is legend & supposition. It has a strong religious element because religion was an important part of this people's history & culture.

I would be interested to know what the general Jewish attitude to this is, especially as these books have been taken on by Christianity, but are originally the scriptures of the Jewish people.

You say that 'The Genesis story for Jews isn't about blame or sin', yet the very story is about Adam and Eve disobeying God and being forced to suffer as a consequence - and mankind suffering henceforth for the same reason. Doesn't this translate as 'original sin'- and the punishment which follows the blame for that sin - even if you do not use that exact terminology?.