jerbear - actually people *were* supposed to have kids in the Garden of Eden - they were only going to have a few kids and with no pain at all. Like elves. But when they were kicked out they were told that as a consequence they had to have a lot of kids to make up for their mortality and it would now be painful for the women. Which we women find very unfair

I think if she's taking advice from a snake you can be pretty certain she been nibbling on those funny-looking mushrooms at some point too! ..but then psychotropics and communing with god could take this discussion in a whole other direction.

That's just not what we believe in our religion. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were "like little children". They did not have children. They weren't elves.
Adam's fall was part of the eternal plan, for them to become mortal, for us to all be born and the world to be the way it is. Without the fall, we would not be here.

BUT, we are not punished for Adam and Eve's sin. They repented and were forgiven of their own sins. We believe that children are born innocent and stay that way until they are old enough to be accountable for their own decisions, then they choose to be baptized.

Also, then what would they and their few elf kids do for eternity? They were immortal right? The few of them would just go on forever in paradise? That sounds nice for a minute..... but even paradise would get pretty boring in eternity.

Can you see that this just isn't possible? Without the fall, there is no progression! We woulnd't be here. There would be no Saviour (no need for him) We wouldn't have a chance to be tested, to exericise our free agency, and have the opportunity to return to live with God.

And as far as childbirth being painful as a punishment.... that's just ridiculous. Anything worth having is a struggle.... and having children is a painful process. If we could just pop them out like hamsters, do you think we would value our children as much?

Hello everyone

We have been utterly unable to liquidate the forces of satan because we have not understood satan's identity or how he came to exist. To extirpate evil by its root, and therby end sinful history and usher in an era of goodness, we must first expose the motivation and origin of satan and recognize the destruction he has wrought in human life.

Here, Im going to share with you the thought of Rev. Sun Myung Moon concerning the fall of Adam and Eve. Thank you.

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The Fall of Man (part 1 of 3)

In the world where the purpose of creation is realized, there is no Satan, no sin, no hell. In the ideal of God's creation only heaven was to exist. But instead, because of sin, man has lost his original value and become like trash, creating hell as his trashcan.

The Root of Sin

Then, what is the origin of sin and what is the true identity of Satan? Christians have only vaguely understood, from the Bible, that the first human ancestors had eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and that this was the root of sin. However, is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil a literal tree, or, as in many other instances in the Bible, is it simply a metaphor or symbol?

Divine Principle clearly shows that it is a symbol. Why would a God of love leave such an alluring fruit near his children that could cause their fall? (Gen. 3:6) As Jesus said in Matt. 15:11, nothing edible can cause a man to fall. It is highly unlikely that God would test man so mercilessly by a means that could cause his death merely to see whether or not he would obey Him. The fruit must symbolize something so extraordinarily stimulating and so ardently desired that even fear of death, of which God warned, could not deter Adam and Eve from eating.

Before we can really determine what the fruit of good and evil was, we must examine the tree that produced it, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In order to do that, we must first grasp the true meaning of the Tree of Life, which stood next to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

In both Prov. 13:12 and Rev. 22:14, the hope of the Israelites of the Old Testament and of Christians from Jesus' day to the present has been to become a Tree of Life. Since the ultimate hope of fallen man is the Tree of Life, we can conclude that the hope of Adam and Eve before their fall was also the Tree of Life. We find in Gen. 3:24, that Adam, after committing sin, could not reach the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life has remained the hope of fallen man.

What must Adam have hoped while he was in the process of growing to perfection? He hoped to reach perfection or manhood. Had Adam attained the Tree of Life by becoming a perfect man and realizing the ideal of creation, all his descendants also could have attained the Tree of Life and thus they could have realized the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, or the Garden of Eden. But Adam fell and God placed the cherubim and flaming sword at the entrance of the Garden to block the way to the Tree of Life (Gen. 3:24). Accordingly, the purpose of creation remained unfulfilled and Adam became a false Tree of Life (fallen man) whose descendants were also false trees of life. Consequently, there must appear on earth a true Tree of Life to which all mankind can be grafted and be brought back to the Garden of Eden, or the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. For this reason, Jesus was symbolized as the Tree of Life in Proverbs in the Old Testament (Prov. 12:12) and the Lord of the Second Advent was similarly depicted in the Book of Revelation in the New Testament (Rev. 22:14). Thus, the goal of salvation is to restore the Tree of Life lost in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9) to the Tree of Life mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 22:14).

God created Adam, and He also created Eve as Adam's spouse. Thus, when we find in the Garden of Eden a tree symbolizing manhood, mustn't there be another tree symbolizing womanhood? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was described as standing with the Tree of Life, is this very tree. So, it is reasonable to conclude that this tree was the symbol of Eve. This can be more clearly seen by examining the meaning of the symbol of the serpent.

In Rev. 12:9, Satan is depicted as the ancient serpent. That serpent, who was thrown down from heaven, was originally created as a good being headed toward perfection. That being could converse with man, it was a spiritual being that knew the will of God, and was capable of deceiving man. And even after that being fell, becoming Satan, he still had the capability of dominating man's mind and body in every way.

Then what being could have done these things? There is no other being that could do these things except an angel. (Then some angel must have sinned against God and fallen to become the evil Satan.) II Peter 2:4 says, "For God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment." (Also see Isa. 14:12).

Then what was the angel's sin? Jude 1:6-7 says, "And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." So from this we can see clearly that the sin of the angel was unprincipled or illicit love.

Then what was the sin of the human ancestors? In Gen. 3:7 we read that after the fall, the first human ancestors, who sinned together with the serpent, became ashamed of their nakedness and covered the lower parts of their body. As it is human nature to hide what is wrong with oneself, could it not be that man also fell because of an immoral act?

In Job 31:33 it is written: "I have concealed by transgressions like Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom." This indicates that Adam committed sin with the lower parts of his body. In the Garden of Eden, what act could man have performed at the risk of his life, but the act of improper love?

Adam and Eve were growing in the relationship of brother and sister and after reaching perfection, were to be blessed in marriage to form the first perfect family, fulfilling God's purpose of creation. But Jesus said in John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil," indicating that all the fallen men of history belong to Satan. In other words, the first human ancestors, having had an illicit relationship with the angel, came to have Satan as their father and father of their descendants: a false father.

Thus, Adam and Eve, forsaking their true father, became one with a false father. Rom. 8:23 says, ". . we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons." John the Baptist called fallen men sons of Satan (Matt. 3:7) and even Jesus said, you serpents, you brood of vipers" (Matt. 23:32).

In conclusion, since the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil symbolized Eve, the fruit of good and evil was the symbol of Eve's love. The fact that Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil means that she had an illicit love relationship with Satan, and the fact that Eve gave Adam the same fruit implies that she seduced Adam to fall in the same way.

Consequently, the origin of human sin is not that the first human ancestors ate a literal fruit, but that they had an illicit love relationship. This established a fallen blood lineage through which the original sin is passed on from generation to generation.

Throughout history, all of the major religions have called adultery one of the greatest sins. Also we can see why the Israelites had to be circumcised as a condition (of redemption) to become God's elect. We may be able to eradicate other sins through social or economic improvements, but even as these are made and living conditions continue to improve, man's inclination towards immorality and degradation has also increased. And no one has been able to prevent this.

As the Last Days draw near and Satan continues to thwart God's original plan for man, we must know this is a result of the fall of the first human ancestors, a direct result of their relating to Satan and making him our false father, disobeying God's commandment and heavenly law. Their descendants are not of God, but of sin, and have created this sinful world of conflict.

Even though God created the world and the universe, He has never been able to dominate the world as its Master. Instead, Satan became the false master of the world (John 12:31, II Cor. 4:4) and has ruled the world.

According to the principle of creation of man, God was to accomplish the purpose of creation through love. Therefore, love is the source of human life and happiness. And because man betrayed this heavenly law through the misuse of love, itself, Satan is making mankind suffer through his false love and illicit domination. Satan is the one responsible for smashing all the ideals of the human family,

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Here's the continuation of the topic Fall of man (part 2 of 3)


The Motivation and Process of the Fall

In the Garden of Eden, how did the ancestors of mankind and the angel fall? By what motivation and process did they fall?

For the creation and operation of the created world, God first made angels as His servants (Heb. 1: 14). Man was created as the son of God, and was given the right to have dominion over all things (Jer. 17:9), including the angels. But because man fell he became deceitful and corrupt above all things and thus has even envied the angels. Yet in I Cor. 6:3, it is written that man has the right to judge the angels. And spiritually gifted individuals have many times described angels as surrounding good spirit men and saints in Paradise. All this shows that man was originally created higher than the angels.

In Isaiah 14:12 we find that Lucifer ("Day Star") was in the position of archangel, the center of all the angelic realm and hierarchy, and that he himself was originally the object of the total love of God. However, after God created man, God loved man more than the angel, who was created to be man's servant. In actuality, God loved Lucifer just as much as before, but when Lucifer saw that God loved Adam and Eve more than himself, he began to feel that the love he was receiving from God had diminished. Then Lucifer tried to come closer to Adam and Eve, who were far above him as objects of God's love, in order to supplement the love he was receiving.

Since God's love is the source of life and the ideal of all created beings, Adam and especially Eve, as the objects of God's love to a much higher degree, appeared very beautiful and attractive to Lucifer. So Lucifer was attracted to Eve and by the stimulation of love, committed sin. The sin that was committed here was the spiritual fall.

How is it possible for sexual relations to occur between an angel and man? Because of the deterioration of man's spiritual perception due to the fall, this seems difficult to understand. However there are many examples in the Bible that illustrate substantial contact between men and angels. One example is that of Jacob wrestling with the angel, when the angel dislocated Jacob's thigh bone (Gen. 32:25).

After Eve and the archangel committed the spiritual fall by uniting their spiritual bodies in illicit love, Eve began to feel fear and with the additional knowledge given to her by her action, understood that her true spouse was supposed to be Adam. Hoping to correct her wrongdoing, Eve then tempted Adam and became one with him since she knew he was to be her original mate. This is the second fallen act of love, which we call the physical fall.

If the first human ancestors did not eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would have perfected themselves as the son and daughter of God, and then with God's blessing, they would have become eternal husband and wife centering around God's love and multiplied children of goodness to fulfill the ideal of God's creation. Then the love of Eve would have become a good fruit and she would have become a tree of goodness, the goal of creation.

However, by Eve's engaging in illicit love with an angel before reaching perfection, and failing, and moreover by her leading Adam to fall as well, a false family was formed within which God could not dwell. Therefore, fallen Eve was likened to an evil tree and her love to an evil fruit. Eve, before the fall, could have become either a good or evil tree, by perfecting herself or failing; thus she was likened to a tree of good and evil. Similarly, her love could have become either a good or bad fruit, accomplishing the purpose of creation or causing the fall, and thus her love was likened to a fruit of good and evil.

According to the principle of creation of man, God was to accomplish the purpose of creation through love. Therefore, love is the source of human life and happiness. And because man betrayed this heavenly law through the misuse of love itself, Satan is making mankind suffer through his false love and illicit domination. Satan is the one responsible for smashing all the ideals of the human family.

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The Result of the Human Fall

What was the result brought about in the world of creation by the spiritual and physical fall of Adam and Eve? Let us make a comparison with what would have happened had they not fallen.

If Adam and Eve had not fallen but had attained perfection they would have been the substantial realization of the vertical love of God, and by then becoming husband and wife, would have realized the horizontal love of God by bearing children of goodness. They would have fulfilled the Four Position Foundation under God's direct dominion.

However, Adam and Eve, who were still growing toward perfection, fell as a direct result of unprincipled love with the archangel. God, the author of the Divine Principle, was excluded and instead a four position foundation centering around Satan was formed, with Satan acting as the false master.

This is the very reason why the Bible refers to fallen mankind as children of the devil (John 8:44) and says that Satan is "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31).

Even Satan, who is said to be master of this world, cannot perform evil actions without having an object with whom to form a reciprocal base for Give and Take Action. Thus, Satan uses as his objects both evil spirit men in the spiritual world and evil men on earth to manifest his power transcendent of time and space. This is the meaning of the verse in Luke 22:3 saying that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot.

If Adam and Eve had formed the Four Position Foundation centering around God, they would have become substantial beings of goodness and realized the world of goodness.

However, since they formed a four position foundation centering around Satan, through their love which originally had a purpose centering on goodness, they became the substantial beings of evil, realizing a world of evil. Thus, good or evil can result from the same action because behind that action are entirely different motivations and purposes.

Therefore good and evil are not decided by the type and result of a certain action, but are decided by whether the motivation, direction and purpose of that action are directed towards the will of God or the will of Satan.

Here's the last part of the fall of man (part 3 of 3)


The Fallen Nature

The angels and the first man and woman were created with the purpose of goodness and were to have only the original nature that they were endowed with when they were created. Prior to the Fall, the relative position of the archangel within the entire order of the Creation was not yet completely clear. The first man and woman were still in their growth period, in other words, they had not yet fully perfected themselves in accordance with their original nature. The archangel and Eve, and then fallen Eve and Adam, had illicit love relationship while they were still not perfected. At the moment of the Fall, the original nature was suddenly turned in the wrong direction, and this wrongly-directed "original nature" became man's Fallen Nature. This Fallen Nature was passed from the archangel to Eve, from fallen Eve to Adam, and from Adam and Eve to all their descendants. The origin of the Fallen Nature was this wrongly-directed "original nature" in the fundamental nature which gives rise to all of the fallen natures of fallen man. In The Principle it is called the original (in the sense of fundamental) Fallen Nature.

The basic motive that caused the original Fallen Nature grew out of the archangel's sensing a lessening of God's love for him after God's creation of man. This feeling of being loved less was an inevitable by-product for the archangel because he was endowed with desire and wisdom in his original nature. However, it was not also inevitable that the archangel fall because of the desire that he had been endowed with. When man perfected himself and loved the archangel as the (archangel's) lord, the feeling of being loved less would have disappeared. Even in man's immature period, when a lessening of God's love was felt by the archangel, if the archangel had maintained his original direction, longing for God's love and centering on Him alone, the archangel could not have fallen. However, when the archangel's feeling of rejection caused him to alter his direction and center on himself, he developed a strong feeling of jealousy toward Adam. When Eve sympathized with the archangel's feelings and viewpoint, she then formed a reciprocal base with the archangel that led to their illicit relationship and fall.

We can separate the original Fallen Nature into four major aspects. First, the motivation of the archangel's fall lay in his failure to see Adam from God's viewpoint, his failure to love Adam as God loved him; instead he took his own direction and became jealous of Adam. We see something of this when students feel jealousy toward a teacher's favorite instead of loving him as the teacher does. This reaction has its origin in the original Fallen Nature.

The second major aspect of the Fallen Nature is the nature to leave one's own given position. The archangel's excessive desire to receive more love from God and to enjoy the same position of love in human society as he did in the angelic realm led to his leaving his position and falling. The actions that fallen people perform beyond the limits of their position and authority in order to fill an unrighteous desire are manifestations of this original Fallen Nature.

The third major aspect of the Fallen Nature is the nature to reverse the order of dominion. The angel was ultimately supposed to be under man's dominion, yet he dominated Eve, reversing the proper order. Eve was supposed to be under Adam's dominion, yet she dominated him. These reversals of dominion resulted in the Fall. All of the various disorders in the fallen world have their origin in this aspect of the original Fallen Nature.

The fourth major aspect is the nature to multiply (or pass on) unrighteous desires and sinful actions. If Eve had not multiplied her crime by seducing Adam after her fall, Adam would have not fallen. To restore Eve alone would have been relatively simple. Eve took the archangel's unrighteous desire 'to eat the fruit of good and evil' and his sinful act of disobeying God and made them her own will and direction, thus multiplying the archangel's will and actions. That unrighteous will and disobedience were then multiplied in Adam, and thus, the Fall was brought about. The fact that in the fallen world evil is more rapidly transferred and multiplied than goodness is a manifestation of this original Fallen Nature.

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But isn't eternity in paradise what many people believe in or, at least, hope for ?

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As far as I remember, Eve wasn't the one told not to eat the fruit. It was Adam, before Eve had arrived.

It must all be allegorical and the important word seems to be 'knowledge'. Humanity values, uses and stores knowledge in a different way from (most / any) other animals. S/he is aware of that knowledge.

Eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge made mankind aware. So what does it stand for?
What made man more aware of his own knowledge than, say, a bear or a tiger?
And more tellingly, than our very close relatives the chimpanzees?

What has happened to us to make us so different? We are more closely related to chimps than gorillas are. Why are we, then, so different? Something must have happened. We ate of the tree of knowledge. What is that the code for?

I think that this could be very relevant to our understanding of 'life, the universe & everything' - including religion and science.

Why have humans developed differently?
What gave us this knowledge about knowledge?
What did we really do, that has been coded as disobeying God, listening to a snake and eating forbidden fruit?
(Bearing in mind that it was the woman who started this disobediant behaviour, not Adam, but that it was Adam, not Eve, who was given the instructions about the tree, from God.)

(Knowledge - perhaps there is a link here with 'Gnosticism'?)

1. The Hebrew scriptures state that Sarah (Abraham's wife) had no pain in childbirth, indicating that some persons can be absolved of original sin. This is absent from any of the christian versions.

2. Christian Evangelism tends to form rich and often bizarre minglings with local religion, among them "Moonism" which seems to be a hybrid of Christianity and Feng Shui.

chaologician, on another thread you mention the book:
'The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind' by Julian Jaynes.

I wonder if Jaynes' conclusions have any relevance here? If he is right, could it be that the change in the type of mind that humans have, as noted by him, is the change that is described as the consumption of 'the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil'?
Has he suggested this, do you know?

There is an item about this book here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind

And here are some relevant excerpts:

"Jaynes asserts that until the times written about in Homer's Iliad, humans did not have the "interior monologue" that is characteristic of consciousness as most people experience it today. Instead, he argues that something like schizophrenia was the typical human mental state as recently as 3000 years ago."

"Jaynes argues that preconscious humans effectively had a "split brain" which allowed one part of the brain to appear to be "speaking" to another part that listened and obeyed, and that commands that at some point were believed to be issued by "gods"--so often recorded in ancient myths, legends and historical accounts--were in fact emmanating from individuals' own minds."

"According to Jaynes, this bicameral mentality began malfunctioning or "breaking down." He speculates that was due to increased societal complexity making more education a matter of necessity; resulting in the dominance of the conscious hemisphere. The mind began exercising conscious thought almost exclusively, for the first time, to enable the continued survival and success of the species or the individual."