"Dude, you're not really going to speak for all Jews, are you?" my partner asked. "Remember that time you tried to speak for all gay people and Elton John almost punched you in the mouth?"

So I've got to be careful. There are a lot of Jews out there in the world, and they're all Jewish in different ways. I'm closest to a Conservative Jew: I observe Shabbat (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday); I attend services on Saturday; I keep kosher in my home. I'm also gay -- which is why I say "closest." Reform synagogues are usually open and affirming about homosexuality. I've been going to my synagogue for so long, though -- since I was a child, really -- that they've been very welcoming to me.

It's also helpful that my partner's a Jew as well. G-d forbid I should have started dating a goyim. I don't think my synagogue would have been nearly as forgiving. My brother married a blonde stick shiksa (shiksa is a derogatory name for a non-Jewish woman) who's a doctor, and my mom still thinks she's not good enough. "Ess gezunah heit," my mom says to her at dinner ("Eat in good health"). Then, when Kimberly leaves to use the restroom, mom says, "She's puking it up. Maybe I should just serve her all her meals in the toilet. Save her time."

And I've gone waaaaaay off point here.

To start off, keep in mind that when I talk about Judaism, I'm talking about my understanding of Judaism -- and I'm certainly not a rabbi. Some Jews will agree with what I'm telling you; some may not. Judaism, more than anything else, is a religion about questions and debates. We're actually encouraged to grapple with the text; to wrestle, like Jacob, with G-d.

Both Jews and Christians believe in a Messiah. Christians believe he was here already, in flesh and blood; Jews are still waiting. While both religions believe in a Messiah, both religions have wildly different ideas of what he is here to do.

For Christians, the Christ was the Messiah -- and he came to die to redeem man of his sinful ways. The Christian Messiah is a sacrificial lamb; G-d has a chance to reenact the Abraham/Isaac story, only this time there's no one to tell G-d to stop. And I actually misrepresented Jesus at the beginning of this paragraph: it isn't his death, so much, that redeems the world. It's his resurrection that heralds the promise of an end to sin.

The Jews had (at the time of Jesus), and still have, a very different idea of what the Messiah will do. In Judaic folklore and in rabbinic teaching, the Messiah will come as a powerful warrior to rescue the Jeews and to overthrow all of our enemies. Our Messiah isn't meek like your Christ. He's armored for battle and will set about creating the New Jerusalem.

Another way to think of it? Christian Messiah = Lamb. Jewish Messiah = Arnold Schwartzeneger (without that pesky Austrian business).

You're begging the question here a bit. You've assumed that Genesis is about "original sin." For Jews, Genesis is a personal "just so" story. Christians see the Genesis story as the beginning of their separation from G-d. They're cast from the garden and from G-d's sight (there's an interesting Christian idea that G-d is blinded to Adam and Eve after they eat of the fruit, since G-d -- whom we've thought of as omniscient -- asks, "Where are you?" after Adam and Eve have hidden themselves. A Jewish reading of this passage, however, is not so mystical. G-d asks, "Where are you?" not because he can't see them, but because, like a parent, he's playing along in hopes that they'll reveal themselves and their transgression to him, rather than having to suss it out on his own. Parents usually would rather a child came to them and said, "I did something," than for a parent to have to come along and say, "Look at what you've done!").

Jews don't see the Eden episode as anything terrible. My Nana Golda says, "With my allergies? You'd want I should spend eternity in a facockta garden? Veh is mir!" And her friend Angela says, "And where would I get a bagel and a schmear in this Eden?"

Since Jews aren't trying to be redeemed in G-d's eyes (we are his chosen people), we don't see the huge spiritual significance that Christians see in the Garden story. "We were in a garden, then we were out of the garden. We were slaves, then we weren't. We were in the desert, then we weren't in the desert. We were in Poland, then, oy gevalt, the tsurris we saw." Life, for Jews, was never 100% lovely -- but that's always been fine for us. We've always perservered.

I agree with you completely that Genesis is a history of a people. It's just that, like with most stories told, some untruth creeps in. It's not bad, this untruth. It can make an awesome story. In the case of the Adam and Eve episode, for Jews it simply answered those questions of "Why does childbirth hurt so much if it's supposed to be so helpful to the world?" And "If we were in a frickin' garden why can't I get my crops to grow so much?" It's nothing to do with redemption or original sin or the fall. As far as Jews are concerned, both Adam and Eve are equally culpable. We don't villify Eve over Adam. And in some synagogues, it's taught that it was good what Eve did -- since she showed her own personality and a willingness to seek for knowledge no matter what the cost.

I hope I was more helpful than long-winded -- though looking back over this, I think I was only mostly long-winded.

No, Wandering Jew, it was and is helpful.

It is fascinating that two different religions use the same scriptures but interpret them differently.

It's not always easy to get both interpretations, though, so I'm grateful to you for this. Thanks.

PS.
Have you looked at our 'Religious Research' discussions. I'm sure that you could add quite a bit to those!

[quote]Originally posted by Lisa Shea: [b] But wait, God was disappointed in what happened. His plan was for Adam and Eve to stay in the garden, to slowly have kids, much as elves did. That was his plan, to live in eternal happiness, peace and harmony with his flock. But he wanted to make sure he didn't force this life on them, that they had a choice. And they chose life without his "parenting". That is of course assuming there really is a God that is a giant parent wanting to rule our lives :) If we assume this is all just a parable to teach us about how to live our lives, then even so, I don't think the lesson is to disobey what people tell you in order to try things for yourself. That is probably the last thing the Church would advocate :) :) But again, let me find Liz to explain her research. [/b][/quote]For a very different take on the Genesis story, read Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael". Some main points: 1. "Paradise" was the time and the way mankind lived until about 10,000 years ago, when people were "living out of the hands of the gods". This means that "the gods" decided whether the hunter would kill (and eat) or the prey would escape (and the hunter go hungry). Life was balanced, and fair. 2. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbolic way of referring to a change in lifestyle that was ushered in about 10,000 years ago, and which Quinn refers to as “totalitarian agriculture”. This is the kind of agriculture where mankind starts to control its own food supply, thus severing its dependence on “the gods” and starting a competition with other life forms as a result of an ever-expanding want for land on which to practice agriculture. 3. More readily available food enabled more offspring, which caused mankind to reason that what was needed the next year was more food to feed that offspring, which enabled more offspring, and so on. This is the vicious cycle in which we’re still trapped and which has increasingly wreaked havoc with the world ever since it started. We’re one of the few generations, if not the only one, who can actually look back and see this now, and can more than any generation before it sense the cumulative effect of the operation of that cycle over the last 10,000 years or so. 4. Quinn refers to “the gods” because his point is that nowhere in the universe is the number of gods recorded. There may be many, there may be one, there may be none. It’s impossible for us to know. For Quinn’s take on how religion originated, read his “The Story of B”, which is more or less a sequel to “Ishmael”.

Hi W. van Galen.

That's interesting, because it equates somewhat with a documentary I watched about Stonehenge.

The implication was that when mankind changed from a nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle, to a sedentary farming lifestyle, it had a profound effect on the psyche and consequently on religious ritual.

Apparently, the change to farming resulted in a huge lifestyle change, that would have been quite depressing.

I think that they concluded that this was one reason for the creation of Stonehenge.

I believe the ADAM & EVE relationship with God Existed due to the fact that He created them, He walked with them as the book of Genesis says and He did not test them, although a Free will Spirit was given to them, the commands were simple, dont's and do's.. Adam even named all the animals, basically he enjoyed all the priviledges that God had given him and lacked nothing . He saw the form of God when God walked with him. It's not Eve who is to be blamed . even thoughshe ate the fruit but Adam should have known better that he had seen all things and not believed the woman who came from him. Plus i dont think that God spoiled their union. Man has a tendency of ruining his own lifestyle and circumstances..lets face it..we can never find true happiness as long as we believe we need to control everything...Adam was depended on God and God loved that about His Creation, Adam messed up...

Hi Derek. Welcome to the forum.

I think this goes along with something Lisa quoted earlier:
"Eve had to be seduced - she would not do it willingly. But Adam did it *knowing* it was bad without any seduction. Eve said "want a bite?" and he said "sure thing!" So in the world of faults, his was greater."

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000015;p=1

Presumably, whoever told this story wanted to get over the message, as you comment, that 'Man has a tendency of ruining his own lifestyle and circumstances'.

Probably right!

So did Eve make a bad choice? People often regard this simple story as the origin of “original sin”. Yet it should not be forgotten that in this story, Eve ate the fruit from the tree of “Knowledge”! And, it was in fact “knowledge” that she has passed along through the generations. Thus it remains to be determined whether it was the kind of “knowledge” which was simply information collected by the brain? (Some learning process.) Or, could this “Knowledge” be more “genetic” in nature? Did Eve eat of the tree of Knowledge and thereby become our source of “new” genetic heritage rather than our source of original sin? Was this knowledge additional DNA information, which allowed Eve and her descendants to evolve? Just a thought.

i think the story was invented to give the church an excuse to demonise and subjugate women. simple as that.

[quote]Originally posted by job: [b] So did Eve make a bad choice? People often regard this simple story as the origin of “original sin”. Yet it should not be forgotten that in this story, Eve ate the fruit from the tree of “Knowledge”! And, it was in fact “knowledge” that she has passed along through the generations. Thus it remains to be determined whether it was the kind of “knowledge” which was simply information collected by the brain? (Some learning process.) Or, could this “Knowledge” be more “genetic” in nature? Did Eve eat of the tree of Knowledge and thereby become our source of “new” genetic heritage rather than our source of original sin? Was this knowledge additional DNA information, which allowed Eve and her descendants to evolve? Just a thought. [/b][/quote]Welcome Job. Have a look at my musings here: Topic: "in his own image" [i]'I think that this is a real mystery. Somewhere along the line our understanding of, and thirst for, 'knowledge' became overwhelming, compared to that of our nearest relatives the chimps ~ how and why? ... 'I think that knowledge and the quest for knowledge is the key difference re us & other primates, and it is very interesting that the story of Adam & Eve concerns man's sudden awareness of, and ability to gain, knowledge ~ the same knowledge that God has.'[/i] http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000532#000000