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#79819 - 05/31/05 01:56 PM
how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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Registered: 05/31/05
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#79821 - 06/04/05 09:29 AM
Re: how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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Regular
Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 95
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Thanks for the links, PDM, and no, I haven't looked at them before.
There is of course one parellel between the two figures concerning this pose and their eyes both looking down. John, on the other hand, is wearing basically the same clothes as the other apostles (which to modern eyes aren't "typically male ones", but that's our modern viewpoint and not Leonardo's one), while Mary gets a costume that only women are wearing in those paintings.
I think there's a general problem, which most people, who believe that there's a woman next to Jesus, don't see, because we are used to a culture that is very "female-centered", when it comes to aesthetics (sorry, for my clumsy English :-). I mean there's a tendency to consider a male with a cute face (and very long hair) as "effeminate", not knowing that there isn't actually much "specifically female" about the face of a woman. If we see a woman, who looks beautiful than it's mainly because of some physical attributes they (still) share with children (as compared with adult men): no real growth of beard, soft skin, big eyes with long eyelashes, a round forehead, prominent upper lip, relative small noses and jaws, etc. (think about the huge amount of money that is spent every year to accomplish this through plastical surgery).
Even some gestures and the higher pitched voices should be considered to be a part of the so called "Kindchenschema". In other words: there aren't so many exclusivly female attributes besides breasts, a bigger pelvis and more fatness in the upper arms and legs. But that's what I just don't discover, when I look at the last supper.
I suppose that many people don't have such a big knowlege of the bible any more, so they probably imagine all apostles to be fully adults with beards. But the apostle John was considered to be more of a boy than an mature man, so the artists usually thought that due to his youth he just didn't have the time to develop a very virile look.
Besides that, where is the logic, when Dan Brown assumes that Leonardo replaced John with Maria Magdalena, if Leonardo himself had on the one hand a weakness for those beardless and long haired boys and was on the other hand not known for being attracted to women? Wouldn't it be much more logic, if Leonardo was trying to enhance the relationship between Jesus and John instead of "erasing" him?
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#79822 - 06/06/05 10:21 AM
Re: how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21224
Loc: UK Midlands
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We have discussed, before, the age of John and how this could explain the way he looks so feminine. However, in some artists' paintings, 'he' looks like a boy, while in others 'he' looks more like a girl. And while I agree that some young men can look very girlish, there are also many very young boys who definitely look male. So, I am not fully convinced by your argument. Then there are the paintings which have Mary M and John looking like twins. They require an explanation, too. And when we ask: 'if Leonardo himself had ... a weakness for those beardless and long haired boys', it is important to remember that it is, indeed, 'if' . We cannot be sure that that is the case. An art historian called Maike Vogt-Luerssen believes that Leonardo actully married. She also believes that his wife was his main model; and that she is the Mona Lisa & the Virgin of the Rocks. She thinks that the model for John the Baptist, etc, was her son. I've mentioned these ideas here: Topic: Isabella of Aragon; a Sforza and Leonardo's model. http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000145#000000 Topic: New portrait of Leonardo? http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000141#000000
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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#79823 - 06/06/05 08:46 PM
Re: how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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Regular
Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 95
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However, in some artists' paintings, 'he' looks like a boy, while in others 'he' looks more like a girl. As I said it before - we tend to interpret aesthetic looks from a female perspective, ignoring that almost nothing on a human face is genuinly female (bigger lipps and cheekbones maybe, but that also depends on the ethnic background of a person). As long as there are no real attributes of a female visible, like breasts for example, then nobody can guess that John "looks female" here. And when we ask: 'if Leonardo himself had ... a weakness for those beardless and long haired boys', it is important to remember that it is, indeed, 'if' . We cannot be sure that that is the case. He was actually famous for that among contemporaries and early biographers like Vasari. An art historian called Maike Vogt-Luerssen believes that Leonardo actully married. She also believes that his wife was his main model; and that she is the Mona Lisa & the Virgin of the Rocks. She thinks that the model for John the Baptist, etc, was her son." That sounds extremely unlikely and the Virgin of the rocks doesn't looks like the Mona Lisa at all.
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#79824 - 06/07/05 05:01 AM
Re: how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21224
Loc: UK Midlands
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As I said it before - we tend to interpret aesthetic looks from a female perspective, ignoring that almost nothing on a human face is genuinly female. As long as there are no real attributes of a female visible, like breasts for example, then nobody can guess that John "looks female" here.I do understand what you are saying, and I appreciate that some youths could easily be mistaken for girls. I've done that myself with some young rock singers. However, I am also saying that young men don't automatically look female. And if one does look female, then it might just be because 'he' is female. Some boys do look 'male' from a young age. Some don't. My two boys looked quite girlish when they were young children. However, at 14, my younger son went to a 'do' in drag. He has a round face & long wavy hair, but no-one mistook him for a girl. So we don't automatically see young men as women - even if they are dressed as a woman dresses. So I cannot concur 100%. And when we ask: 'if Leonardo himself had ... a weakness for those beardless and long haired boys', it is important to remember that it is, indeed, 'if' . We cannot be sure that that is the case. Maybe that was because of the court case? But I don't think that he was found guilty, was he? This allegation would have had its effect, though. Is there any real proof or evidence that Leonardo was homosexual? These are comments by Charles Nicholl, in his ’Leonardo da Vinci – the flights of the mind’ P116: ‘Like most students of Leonardo today, I interpret him as homosexual – though there is some piquant evidence .. that he was not exclusively so. The allegation laid against him in 1476 is plausible enough, though this is not saying it was true.P442: ’Leonardo had many relationships with women.’ An art historian called Maike Vogt-Luerssen believes that Leonardo actully married. She also believes that his wife was his main model; and that she is the Mona Lisa & the Virgin of the Rocks. She thinks that the model for John the Baptist, etc, was her son." Why would you think it so unlikely? It sounded quite logical to me. and the Virgin of the rocks doesn't looks like the Mona Lisa at allI’m not really sure about that. I’ve looked closely and there are similarities, I think. [img]http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:zzT3PQ2PaLYJ:gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/leonardo/04/1monali1.jpg[/img] 
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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#79826 - 06/08/05 10:29 PM
Re: how the apostle John was usually portrayed
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Regular
Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 95
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Actually, the similarity beween the Mona Lisa and John the Baptist (also because of the smile) is even bigger than between the Mona Lisa and his Madonna. I have not yet read Charles Nicholl's book, but there's another biography you have mentioned somewhere else that I did read. It's the one of Serge Bramly, in which Leonardo wasn't shown as someone, who had "relationships with woman", but like a person, who was at least attracted to Salai and Francesco Melzi - though nobody can ultimately prove, how he acted on these feelings (I'd really like to know, if the famous drawing of the bike has at least some authenticity, when it concerns these other pictures on the sheet, who were obviously not drawn by him, but maybe by one of his students - it refers to Salai): http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/leo01.jpg There's also a drawing of female genitals, which is at the same time surprisingly incorrect when it comes to the real anatomy of a woman, and also looking rather "uncanny": http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/leo12.jpg (it's hard to imagine that a hetero- or bisexual man would have drawn something like that). Btw, the famous self portrait of Leonardo (shown in Turin), which Maike Vogt-Luerssen believes to portray an older relative of him, is considered as a 2 centuries old hoax by a German expert: http://leo.skyar.com/selbst.htm
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