Somsuj,

You assume incorrectly that I am angry in my responses...I sound like a broken record by saying that explaining thru typed words connotes misunderstandings...As I said above and in other posts, I LIKE to talk about my faith. I have never been angry whilst responding. If I was angry I would add angry faces like this: Do not assume what you do not know!

As far as your references to Christmas trees, Sunday worship, etc. being representative of Christianity to non Christians, my point is: those practices are not a form of pagan worship so how can we be judged by them? I just don't see the validity of outlining that point. In our day and age they are simply traditions. Most people dont even know that other religions celebrated with trees, dressing up etc. Your average Joe just thinks of those things as traditional. Halloween had it's origins in a pagan practice. Does that mean that if I send my kids out on October 31 to collect candy that I am a pagan worshiper? Of course not, in America it is simply a tradition. Nothing more. And if you know Americans you know these things.


Tell me somsuj.....Do you believe in a Supreme Being who created the earth?

The above post was edited by me somsuj if you read it recently....

I guess the bottom line for this current discussion is this: Christianity is not a compilation of pagan religions. Yes, we have to concede that Dec. 25, trees, mistletoe, etc. is borrowed from other religions. I've known that for years. But still, this is not a form of worship and that's what I take issue with. In a couple of other posts, PDM disagrees with that point. She states that Christianity IS a compilation...go look. I say just because celebrational dates are similar does not equal the same as in doctrines being the same.

'Compilation' is greatly different than 'borrowed dates' Sheeesh I am hoping I make sense!

Squeekychimp, if you think you put a smiley emoticon after posting "Do not assume what you do not know!" and I would think you are not angry / rebuking me - then you are wrong. I do understand a little.

Re compilation problem - you sort that ou with PDM.
Squeekychimp : As far as your references to Christmas trees, Sunday worship, etc. being representative of Christianity to non Christians, my point is: those practices are not a form of pagan worship so how can we be judged by them? I just don't see the validity of outlining that point. In our day and age they are simply traditions. Most people dont even know that other religions celebrated with trees, dressing up etc. Your average Joe just thinks of those things as traditional. Halloween had it's origins in a pagan practice. Does that mean that if I send my kids out on October 31 to collect candy that I am a pagan worshiper? Of course not, in America it is simply a tradition. Nothing more. And if you know Americans you know these things.

If you do not see the validity of outlining that point - it is fine. I see it as a valid point.

In our day and age they are simply traditions - yes, CHristian traditions with routes in other religions.
Please do not undermine average Joe - he may know a lot, and has a vote ( may be for Bush )

Squeekychimp : Tell me somsuj.....Do you believe in a Supreme Being who created the earth?
Yes, I still believe in a supreme being. I have no proof that such a being exists, I have no proof that such a being does not - hence I cannot say that it does not exist. It may have created the Universe ( why earth only ? )
What that has to do with this discussion ?

I'm going to print this discussion off and sort out exactly what is being said before commenting, otherwise I think it leaves yet more opportunity for misunderstandinfg.

Like everyone else here, I enjoy debating, not arguing. I'll be back when I've organised my thoughts.

Well, I've organised some of my thoughts, but I'd welcome any comments. Sorry if it's a bit long! :) Hi Squeeky You are unhappy with certain comments & how they are expressed, so I’ll deal with those first: [b] PDM … states that Christianity IS a compilation...go look [/b] I don’t think, as you do, that ‘Compilation implies agreement’. First, the definition of ‘Compile’ in the Concise Oxford Dictionary: ‘to collect (material) into a list; volume; etc. to make up volume etc of such materials accumulate ‘Compilation’ compiling or being compiled; thing compiled.’ Not ideal when used about the evolution of a religion, I agree. But it wasn’t me who originally used the word. It goes back to Squeeky’s comment: [b]’ Gnosticism … They believe in a compilation of different religions....they group together ideas from Egyptian Babylonian, Greek and Astrology among others including Christianity’[/b] I simply responded ‘So does Christianity! ‘ I would not have used the word ‘compilation’ myself. I might have used ‘borrowed’ like Somsuj, or possibly ‘inherited’. I think the basic meaning, in this context, is so similar as not to matter, but others might disagree. From my reading, it seems to me that the origins of Christianity can be found elsewhere; not just in the teachings of Jesus as given in the New Testament. Squeekychimp, you have stated a couple of times that: ‘[i]Christianity does not have a hard time defining what it is[/i]‘, but no-body has argued against this, as far as I am aware. You said that Gnostics did have ‘[i]a hard time[/i]’ defining itself and I would like further evidence of this. Also you asked how references from other texts ‘disprove’ or ‘negate’ Christianity, but who has suggested that they do? It is only you who have claimed that ‘[i]when someone says that Christian and other religious texts are similar or borrowed they imply a downgrading of Christianity ..[/i]’ Why do you feel this? And I have not suggested that Christians worship holly, mistletoe or Christmas trees, though, to an ignorant observer, it might well look as if they do. I am merely stating that they have become part of Christian ritual; Christianity has taken them on board and made them part of itself. I have already said that we need to clarify what we mean by Christianity and Christian beliefs because the matter is causing confusion. Is it Jesus’s teachings in the Gospels? Is it everything in the New Testament? Is it everything in the Bible? Is it everything taught / taken on board by ‘the Christian Church’ – however that might be interpreted: The Jerusalem Church, the Celtic Church, the RC church, the post-Reformation Church., other Christian organisations? Squeeky, you have given some basic beliefs: Christ is the New Covenant. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the final atonement for sin. Christianity believes in one God manifested in the trinity. Christ is the Messiah. Of course, these are Christian beliefs, rather than proven facts, but that is a separate issue. The relevant point here is whether they represent Christianity, and what other ideas also represent Christianity and / or Christian belief. Except that I am not happy about the last point: [b] ‘Christ was THE Messiah that was predicted for years before in the Judaic Old Testament!’ [/b][SqueekyChimp] Yes ‘Christ’ must be the ‘Messiah’ because they are the same word in two languages, but the Messiah was a particular type of person in Jewish culture – and Jesus did not fulfill the expectations required of a Messiah. This has been discussed elsewhere: Son of God / Son of Man : http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000119#000001 The Greek word "Christos"... http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000157#000000 So, we need to look at what really does define Christianity and whether any of these important aspects of the religion might be borrowed from / compiled from / inherited from any other religion, or whether they are unique to Christianity. But I feel that, even if I can show that they do, Squeeky has already given her responses: ‘Yes, we have to concede that Dec. 25, trees, mistletoe, etc. is borrowed from other religions. I've known that for years. But still, this is not a form of worship and that's what I take issue with’ ‘As far as Christmas trees, Sunday worship, dressing up for church, the birthdate of Christ...being of pagan origin...who cares? It has nothing to do with worship. None of that matters! Christ never asked us to celebrate his birth. He never asked us to celebrate Easter.’ ‘Yes, Jesus was a Jew. He had to start somewhere on earth and be of some nationality/religion to start with.’ ‘As far as the references from other texts (Hinduism, Buddism, etc.)....it does not surprise me that some wording in religious texts are similar...how does that disprove Christianity?’ ’ Does not surprise me that various other descriptions of a supreme being would be alike. To many religions God is the beginning and the end of all things...So? How does that negate Christianity?’ alike. To many religions God is the beginning and the end of all things...So? How does that negate Christianity?’ ‘how does that disprove Christianity? How does that negate Christianity?’ Who said that it did? The point is that Christianity has ‘borrowed’ from other religions, or inherited beliefs, or been influenced, or whatever. And you have accepted that, but you state that it has nothing to do with Jesus himself. Fair enough. But what if the borrowing, inheriting, compiling, etc, went right back to Jesus himself and the Bible? Now, you have brought up that other matter of whether this disproves or negates Christianity. You mentioned astrology in connection with Gnostics, yet the New Testament says that Jesus was visited by the Magi. Why would Christian documents believe in or refer to such sorcery? The New Testament refers to the Virgin birth. From experience I have found that this is very important to Christians. Yet this is a common motif in the story of various pagan gods. Christ died on the cross (or on a tree) according to the Gospels, but then, so did many other ordinary people. Can the symbol of the crucified God-man be found before Jesus? Yes, there is, indeed, a similar story about Dionysius / Osiris. Resurrection stories, similar to those of Jesus, were also told about pagan God men. The Lord’s prayer – the special one that Jesus gave us - seems to go back at least to the Old Testament, and researchers claim that it is very similar to a prayer to the Aten. ’ Christianity believes in one God manifested in the trinity.’ Other religions believe in one God manifested as more than one. Akhenaten was famous (infamous) for being monotheistic. As for Babylon, I have read elsewhere that Judeo-Christianity must have been influenced a lot during the sojourn in Babylon. Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy have gone so far as to say that the original Christianity was Gnosticism; that Jesus did not exist except as an allegory; and that his stories are based on pagan stories. Ahmed Osman and Ralph Ellis actually believe that Christianity evolved from the monotheistic Egyptian religion of Akhenaten. Both theories make sense to me. Whether either of them is true or not, is another matter. For a thread on Freke & Gandy: Jesus, a pagan god? http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000009#000000 There’s an item on the book here: Note the picture of a Godman on the cross. Apparently this is Dionysius / Osiris. [img]http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0722536771.02.LZZZZZZZ.gif[/img] And here's a quote from the page: [i]'The stories told about Osiris-Dionysus will no doubt sound familiar. He is the Son of God who is born to a virgin on the 25th of December before three shepherds. He is a prophet who offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism. He is a wonderworker who raises the dead and miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony. He is God incarnate who dies at Easter, sometimes through crucifixion, but who resurrects on the third day. He is a savior who offers his followers redemption through partaking in a meal of bread and wine, symbolic of his body and blood. The Jesus story is a synthesis of the Jewish myth of the Messiah Joshua (in Greek Jesus) with these Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting Godman. '[/i] http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html For Ralph Ellis thread: http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000165#000006

I always thought it was a great phenomenon and open-mindedness demonstrated by early Christian Church (rightly or wrongly) to assimilate good things of other religions to provide a holistic religion acceptable to the mass.

It seems we do not appreciate that openness any longer.

I'm not convinced that it was anything to do with being 'open-minded' or 'holistic', Somsuj; but about being 'acceptable to the mass' - yes.

I think that many people believe that their religion is right, that's all, and many feel that they have to convert others. This has been done in many ways, including by force - Inquisition and associated history - and by simply taking over. The pagan religious dates and rituals were just included in the Christian religion. Then, for the ordinary folk, nothing much changed.

I think that it is by exploring all of these avenues that we might eventually discover something like the truth.


It would be great if we could all appreciaye all that we have and be thankful and help to keep it safe. We could be grateful to God, or the universe, or the Divine Architect. It doesn't matter which. What matters is that we all appreciate the gift and miracle of 'life the universe and everything' and stop fighting wars - especially over religion.

Somsuj, It disappoints me greatly that you do not take me at my word when I say that I am not angry while discussing religion. [quote] [b]Squeekychimp, if you think you put a smiley emoticon after posting "Do not assume what you do not know!" and I would think you are not angry / rebuking me - then you are wrong. I do understand a little. [Wink] [/b] [/quote]Even after I state that fact over and over you still do not believe me. Thus, why should I continue a conversation about any subject when I ask you to believe me about something as simple as that and you will not? I see that as disrepectful. PDM, Where do I start? You have mentioned quite a few points and I don't think I can cover them all in one post. [quote] Except that I am not happy about the last point: ‘Christ was THE Messiah that was predicted for years before in the Judaic Old Testament!’ [SqueekyChimp] Yes ‘Christ’ must be the ‘Messiah’ because they are the same word in two languages, but the Messiah was a particular type of person in Jewish culture – and Jesus did not fulfill the expectations required of a Messiah. This has been discussed elsewhere: [/quote]Of course he did to some, thus Christianity was born. Of the other references you outline of similar practices between various pagan religions and Christianity, my point was and still is simple. I agree that there are similarities with a few practices/symbols but do not see that as a correlation in doctrines. That is the only point I wanted to make clear. I think we have reached an understanding in that arena so we can move on. As far as the Gnostics, I have several books that I will have to refresh my memory with. I will get back on that ok? Are you coming for tea today? :)

Squeekychimp, sorry to disappoint you - you sensed angry in your post - but I am sure you were smiling when you posted it. I try to believe you very hard, but have learnt not to take anything at face value ................
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You know what ? I was just winding you up !