PDM,

This thread isn't about whether or not the Church of England is Catholic or Protestant. It is about whether or not it was an insult for the Pope to present the Queen of England a rosary.

My response is that it isn't because of the theological similarities. Further, like the Pope, the Queen is the head (technically) of the Church of England.

As a Christian, I think that this sort of thing does nothing to further the cause of Christ.

SouthSideSlim,

Well, this thread wasn't specifically about 'whether or not the Church of England is Catholic or Protestant', but that is obviously relevant to the topic, because this is what you put in the second item posted:

'..the Church of England (along with the associated Anglican Communion) is not a Protestant denomination, it is a Catholic denomination.'

If the rosary is specifically 'Roman Catholic', then I might understand the idea that it should not have been given to the head of the 'Anglican Catholic' (Protestant) Church. However, if the Anglicans were Roman Catholics, then it wouldn't matter.

Anglicans are not Roman Catholics, but the Queen receives so many weird and wonderful gifts, from all over the world, that I doubt that she would be offended by this. After all, she was visiting the Pope!

Can't agree with that. The Anglican Church has been Protestant from the time of Elizabeth I. It's true that when Henry VIII first split with Rome, the English Church at first remained essentially Catholic. But it became Protestant in the reign of Edward VI and although Mary I tried to revert the country to Catholicism, it didn't last. The Church of England became Protestant again in the 1550s and has remained so ever since. I.e. they threw out not just the Pope and the rule of Rome, but they got rid of quasi-worship of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, out with purgatory, down with Latin, acceptance of salvation by faith etc.

Of course the term 'Protestant' is really just a generic one that covers a range of Christian denominations, which differ significantly from each other on a wide range of points anyway. And I see what you mean about the Catholic roots of Anglican worship....but nonetheless the Church of England is usually classified as a Protestant denomination.

Joe,

I realize this. My point was that it was in no way "underhanded" for the Pope to present the Queen of England with a rosary.

The classification of the Anglican Communion as Protestant, however, is an external one. I have never considered myself a Protestant. As I pointed out earlier, our summary of our faith includes the line "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church." This line is recited at every Holy Eucharist.

Our historical documents include the "Definition of the Union of the Divine and Human Natures in the Person of Christ" from the Council of Chalcedon, 451 A.D. and the Quicunque Vult commonly called The Creed of Saint Athanasius. The latter begins with the line, "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith." and ends with "This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved."

Now if someone who is not an Anglican thinks that we're Protestants, fine. Anglicans, however, view themselves as Catholics.

Hello South slim,
you are bogging down the issue with labels and historical terminology,This camouflajing technique does not blind me at all and you are avoiding the central point about the rosary in the closed box also.
Protestants have been around before Jesus and Jesus was a protestant himself and suffered his fate in the hands of the jewish church with a bit of help with some roman people.
The pope is certainly not one of my bishops and his associates are not my kind of people in all that fancy dress either.
Forget all that xxxx about Henry and his wives ,the british people at the time were a bit fed up with the guys from down south as it was and were in the protestant shoes ready to deliver a good old right foot to the boys in frocks to return to the that old boot in the meditterean.
Protestants are those who want freedom to live without domination and intereference from a authouritive religious or political organisation.
The greatest protestants in euroupe in the last thousand years were the hussites in bohemia.When Jan Hus an ex catholic left the church in protest at its unchristian behaviour he was promised a safe meeting to discuss his critism with the reps of the pope,but as always with these guys they burnt him at the stake.Jan was well liked and used to teach the bible under a tree in 1412 in the czech langauge and also allow the people to take part in the taking of wine and bread in remembrance of christ.Not allowed by the guys in frocks then.
On the death of Hus the bohemians revolted and made bohemis a free country were people could worship jesus as they liked in thier own language.It was the first proper protestnat country in euroupe and was romantically famed because all the artists ,scientists and creative people could live thier protected by the hussites without fear of being killed by the catholics.King George first protestant king in bohemia dreamed of a united euroupe with no war and tried to set up a kind of united nations.
The pope sent 3 armies,the last was 120,000 knights against just 20,000 hussite fighters.
But the catholics soon ran back again.Even joan of arc sent a letter saying she would come and fight the bohemians ,but that was a bluff.
Finally the pope accepted defeat and agreed to leave bohemia alone.The hussites allowed the catholics to live in bohemia as well,it was full of all kinds of people and freedom of expression.
This lasted until 1621 when at the battle of the white mountain the catholics won.All the artists sceientists and protestant had to leave.All people were forced to be catholic or be executed.They were also forced to speak german as the catholic invaders were austrian dominated via the Hapsburg catholic family.It got free again after world war I, thats when my great grandad got shot in head by a german sniper.A ustrian Adolf and his comrades walked back in again in 1939 and mussolinna that italian guy and a few more italians also got involved in the action as well.The boys in the frocks in the vatican they are a big sin party.
The ones in croatia went a little bit too far and had a little bit more than a party in thier churches with some of those unfortunate serbs.

The pope forced tha rosary beads on the protestant queen.Just in the same way that you would disguise meat in a vegetable soup to offer a vegetarian.He gave her something that she might think distastefull and did it by putting the box closed into her hand.
He got his free advertising for his catholic symbol in the qeens hands,by a dodgy underhand method.Did not fool me or a few others with that crass tactic.

For one last time, the Pope didn't use an underhanded or crass tactic.

The Anglican Communion is Protestant in that we do not acknowledge any authority of the Pope over us. It is Catholic because it proclaims the whole Faith to all people, to the end of time.

What's the problem with a rosary? You said in your first post that if it had been a cross, it would've been OK. Well, a rosary has a crucifix on it, a type of cross. Or if you think that's some sort of reserved Catholic symbol, that's not the case at all.

You think that in the Church of England, the priests don't wear vestments? That the bishop's don't wear a mitre and carry a crozier?

Before replying I suggest you visit

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/

You'll find nothing there that contradicts what I say in this post.

BTW, my signature literally translated means "Where there is caring and love, God is also". From our Catechism, under the topic of "God the Son".

Q. What is the nature of God revealed in Jesus?
A. God is love.

One more thing, if you think Anglicans don't hold the saints in high regard, the shield symbol of the Episcopal Church implictly acknowledges two them. You have the shield of St. George (patron saint of England) and the cross of St. Andrew (upper left hand corner). He's the patron saint of Scotland.

Rosary beads involve counting prayer as regards the mother of jesus.Protestants do not worship his mother mary at all.We worship only jesus.
Mary for us is just a women like any other earthly women.
Amadues mozart was a brilliant musician but should we also recognise his mother.Most people would not even know the name of mozarts mother.
We recognise Jesus only and he himself said his own parent were not that important and we should respect him more than our parents.He knew
the dangers when people would be influenced to love and respecxt the parents more than him.He was right.We should not worship his mother.The rosary beads are involved in that act.And I would never accept them as a gift and protestants find them to be a gimmick and bad and you trying to define the protestant churches as still being part of the catholic church is a farce of an excuse for what the pope trying to pull a fast one.The cross is respected by all christian but certainly not those counting beads.As regards the episcopotal church ,not sure what that is about,but if george bush is one of them ,it could be a bit dodgy given his antics,and that of his granfather.I am a real protestant,no saints ,no mary ,no pope.no vatican.
..and no rosary beads..could play marbles with them though.Perhaps that what the queen did..play marbles.I do not need site references .I know what is what as jesus said it..forget the beads,but the cross is ok,the wine or the bread.The pope should have given the queen a nice box of fine italian wine and made friends BUT The bad guys always play bad and never seem to give it up. Thank god we are free of them.

Catholics don't worship Mary, either.

My Anglican Priest friend used to go on pilgrimage to the Marian site at Walsingham.


See:
'The Virgin by the Sea; Our Lady of Walsingham'
by Brother John M. Samaha, S.M.'
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/walsh.html