Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible

Posted by: PDM

Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/27/06 05:42 PM

We have been discussing the current problems in the Middle East and I Love Gus & Milo said this:

Originally Posted By: I Love Gus & Milo
The middle east has been at odds and fighting for land since Joshua marched around Jerico, and took the city. The land became isreal...and was still fought over at that time.The "Mistake" of Abraham having a child by his Hand Maden, and then ahving a son by his wife didn't help matters, and to this day his mistake is casing problems. That's right... ONE mistake by that man has caused ALL of this mess to continue. The Decendants of the Child of the Hand Maden (Ismael) (the Arabs) Believe that as First Born They should get the land and it is thiers.

The Children of Abes wife Sara (Issac) (the Jews) Believe that the land should be thiers becasuse Aberaham give it to him as his true Heir.

(and God Promised that land to the Jews, but since a lot of people here will not take the bible and God into view, I will leave it at acctual geneolgies)

Since that time, the land has been fueding over who it belongs to. The Arabs (childen of Ishmael) or The Jews (children of Issac)

They have been at it for thousands of years, and if you believe the Bible, it will not stop until the end of time. '


Topic: Israel & The Middle East Question
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156548&fpart=1


What are people's thoughts on this aspect of the subject?
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/27/06 09:01 PM

I like that interpretation! All from Abraham's one mistake.

Interesting.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/27/06 09:54 PM

Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23††But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24††Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25††Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26††But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27††For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband." 28††Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29††But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30††But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31††So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/27/06 11:21 PM

I'd say that the Arabs are ethnically probably closer to the original Hebrews than most of the people who call themselves Jews today. The majority of modern Jews are predominantly of European stock, and are a religious group more than an ethnic one.

Come on! Does anyone actually believe that the modern Jews are all descendants of Isaac, or that the Arabs are descended from Ishmael?

I'd say that the modern mess in the Middle East was at least partly created by the British, not by Abraham. It was we who promised the same patch of land to the Jews and to the Arabs back in 1917. At that time, the Jewish population in Palestine was pretty small. We oversaw mass Jewish immigration to the place before and after the Second World War, then in 1947, when it all went to hell and the Jews and Arabs started fighting it out (ooops, didn't see that one coming) we got out fast.

The whole thing, in a way, is a nasty hangover from the British Empire.
Posted by: fish

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/28/06 02:40 AM

The blood relationship of Israel, Palestinians and surrounding neighbors is a little bit more complicated than just the relationship of Ishmael and Isaac. The Moabites and Ammonites are descendents of Abrahamís nephew Lot. Ismael is the son of Hannah. After Sarah died Abraham took Keturah as his wife and she gave birth to six other sons, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. These Abraham sent away from Isaac, however maybe it was not far enough. Isaac had two sons of which Esau was the father of the Edomites. Throughout Israelís history you will find the descendents of most of these men were Israelís enemies. The relationship problems did not start with Joshua crossing the Jordan, they started hundreds of years before during Abrahamís time. Jealousy and strife within Abrahamís immediate family thousands of years ago is the cause of these modern day problems. End time prophecy involves the descendents of many of these men.
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/28/06 04:07 AM

There is more to this 'Problem' in the Thread "Abraham"...

check this out (last of my post\'s):
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/28/06 11:56 PM

See Also:

Topic: Believer 101 (A look into the mindset of a believer)
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/u...amp;p=39#000572
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 12:34 AM

Abraham and Sara could not have children. However, the Lord made a covenant with Abraham and promised him that his descendants would become a great nation. Abraham and Sarah being elderly, did not believe they would be able to conceive. They took it upon themselves to make God's plans for them become reality. Sara, who at that time was called Sarai took matters into her own hands and asked her husband Abraham (called Abram at the time) to sleep with her maidservant Hagar. Abram took her suggestion and slept with Hagar. That union conceived Ishmael. When Sara did finally conceive and gave birth to Isaac, this created a rift between Sara and Hagar. This rift ended in Hagar and Ishmael being sent to live somewhere else. These half brothers became what is today the Arabs(Ishmael) and Jews (Isaac). The battle is still raging over one man and one woman's decision to take matters into their own hands and not trust that God would do what he promised.

As Spiderman says "with great power, comes great responsibility". This is all too true. For to whom much is given, much is required. We have been given so much, especially here in the USA. We are blessed because we support Israel.

"Where you go, I will go and where you stay I will stay, your people will be my people and your God will be my God" Ruth 1:16

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 02:06 AM

PDM: I did not personally attack anyone. I called terrorists hateful. I have never, to my knowledge met any terrorists, but their title alone tells me I don't want to meet any. My point was in defending Israel against what janimal stated. He stated Israel deserves the bombs dropped on them.

I apologize if my passion for Israel comes across too strongly. When fish and I visited Israel two years ago, we felt at home. There is something about that country which calls out to believers and makes you feel like one of them, makes you relate to their hurts, their struggles, etc. Israelis live in constant fear for their lives. Their children live in fear of constant attack by the many countries which surround them who are all out to wipe them off the face of the earth. You cannot help but feel compassion and sympathize with a country that struggles like that every day.

As Believer stated, no one deserves to have bombs dropped on them. However if a country is attacked it would stand to reason they would fight back.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 02:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
The battle is still raging over one man and one woman's decision to take matters into their own hands and not trust that God would do what he promised.
So, if God was all powerful, could he not have prevented Hagar to conceive also?

could he have arranged for Ishmael to be killed?

Was he too busy killing the righteous people like Ryan Hall instead?

Or perhaps "God" was playing with his creations again, the same way a boy will mix up the ant farm just to see them fight.

This is your God, a God who allows this to happen. If he was as all powerful as you believe, he could have stopped this long ago. Instead, he ALLOWED this continue, unchecked, for thousands of years.

This is the GOD you WORSHIP! You Praise for his wisdom! You accept without question his judgement!

This God is a lunatic, and YOU WORSHIP HIM!
Posted by: infiniteprocessprophet

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 04:30 AM

I believe that the whole mess within the middle east is a man made mess. It is not unusual for mankind to use God as a basis for their actions or to justify their actions. I believe some have gotten so lost in their religious zeal that they have lost sight of reason (or maybe they just don't care about reason).

If it was truly the one and true God that created the universe and all in it, that aid that particular land is theirs, why would they have to fight for it. The Ultime God's will is undeniable and ultimate. They fight for their own cause not God's. God doesn't need guns and bombs and the such to exact his will. [Almost like tithes. Does the God who created the suns and planets really need your money, 'Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give unto God what is God's]

Just another case of mankind using God to their own ends.
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by infiniteprocessprophet:
I believe that the whole mess within the middle east is a man made mess. It is not unusual for mankind to use God as a basis for their actions or to justify their actions.
That's what it seems these "Religions" exist for, what else to say?

Quote:
Originally posted by infiniteprocessprophet: They fight for their own cause not God's. God doesn't need guns and bombs and the such to exact his will. [/QB]
But it's THE ULTIMATE excuse!

We are quite some (un)-funny bunch of creatures... aren't we?
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:
...This is your God, a God who allows this to happen. ...
Isn't this your God, too, mbas?
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 10:01 AM

you believe the middle east crisis is man made? well, duh - i thought the goats were to blame. the middle east will keep boiling away while everybody tries to excuse themselves with ancient texts. you seem the spiritual apartheid thread - well, this is where entrenched opposing religious views lead. i hope they all eveaporate each other soon so the rest of us can get on with our lives.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by janimal:
you believe the middle east crisis is man made? well, duh - i thought the goats were to blame. the middle east will keep boiling away while everybody tries to excuse themselves with ancient texts. you seem the spiritual apartheid thread - well, this is where entrenched opposing religious views lead. i hope they all eveaporate each other soon so the rest of us can get on with our lives.
Is this your response to the comment by Infiniteprocess?

'I believe that the whole mess within the middle east is a man made mess.'
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
PDM: I did not personally attack anyone. I called terrorists hateful. I have never, to my knowledge met any terrorists, but their title alone tells me I don't want to meet any. My point was in defending Israel against what janimal stated. He stated Israel deserves the bombs dropped on them.

...
For my part, I was just attempting to respond to Captain Haddock's response to you in the context of how I read it.

As you must have seen, I said that it wasn't acceptable to call anyone 'hateful'. However, I think that it was meant less as a direct insult than as a parallel response.

I told Janimal that I didn't think that two wrongs made a right and that, while I thought Israel's response was disproportionate, I hated to hear of Israeli civilians being killed, too.

You stated:
'If Israel bombs the xxxx out of the entire middle east it is well deserved.'

You must have known that it would receive a response and possibly a negative one, because you continued:

'There I said it. Go ahead the rest of you and call me an uncaring Christian. Judge me for making the statement I just did.'

If people believe that bombing civilians is 'hateful' ~ as you seemed to, in an earlier post, then you must see the logic of this description? confused

I am not suggesting that you have hurt people or that you are a hateful person or that you have insulted anyone on the forum, but I do think that it is wrong to support the slaughter of innocent children, just as I thought that it was wrong to attack the twin towers or the Madrid railways or the London Underground, or the Birmingham pubs.

Terrorism, murder, hatred are all evil, I don't think that we can say that a bad deed committed by one person is less or more hateful than the same bad deed carried out by another.

'When someone speaks ill of Israel, my blood boils.' [LordsLady]

Why?
Why, if they are doing wrong?
What is now happening is more slaughter of 'Amalekite babies'.

I don't deny what some others have said, that, given the chance, the neighbours of Israel might do the same to them. I just don't know.

What I do know is that Israel is slaughtering innocent peasants and doing so from a country that was simply taken from its inhabitants. No wonder there is hatred.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 10:24 AM

well when you're talkin war the question of cosmic causality is irrelevant. war is man made. nothing to do with god. often excused by religion, but only by those too weak to have their own opinions and reasons. to weak to say i'm shooting him because i hate his guts and want his land rahter than i'm smiting the infidel. it always looks like a loftier cause than greed, but not very convincing.
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 11:09 AM

Waht should one make out of the general view from the radical section. that they see themselves as believers and followers of the Lords will and everyone else is an infidel and just the same as dogs and pigs...????????????????????


How well are these children of god trained - question remains: "What god might that be?"

It's not about Land, Customs, People, Differences it is about ignorance, indoctrinated stupidity, fanticised madness...

ah well.. and then this won't stop the palnets to rotate..
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PDM:
Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:
[b] ...This is your God, a God who allows this to happen. ...
Isn't this your God, too, mbas? [/b]
Certainly seems that way. This is not a God who deserves praise and worship.

Is that God's love too?

Maybe God can make a drug addict feel good about himself, but that same God (if there's only one) takes his creations and pits them against each other constantly.

Yep, this is my God, too. How awful that the Christians can't admit to it too.

Their God is one of "peace and love" with nothing whatsoever to do with war, hate, murder and conflict.
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 01:23 PM

A question:

Since when is "hateful" a swear word?

When someone advocates killing thousands of people they've never even met, I'd say hateful is the appropriate description.

How else could one possibly refer to that?

Is there a politically correct term?

Maybe I'll stick to compassion challenged in future.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 03:13 PM

Israel was promised to the Jewish people. It belongs to them. God gave it to them.

Someone in a previous post stated that they could not tolerate bullies. Have you looked at a map and witnessed the size of Israel? Have you also checked out the competition?

My blood boils because the Arab nations are not content with having an extremely large portion of the middle east. They want all or nothing. Please for a moment don't think that they will stop at the middle east. They will then want the rest of the world.....that includes the country you live in.

If any of you believe that Christianity is such a terrible faith, you have seen nothing yet. Let the Muslims take over and make us all pray five times a day on top of a rug facing mecca and medina.

I don't support genocide. I support stopping terrorist. If innocent people are hurt in the meantime, that is the price of war. The people at the World Trade Center (forgive me for going on about the WTC, but I am a former New Yorker and that city is still very dear to me) were they out dropping bombs on anyone when cowardly terrorists flew planes into it? No, they were going about their business, doing their jobs when they were viciously attacked with no provocation.

Then we had Al Qaeda. Now we have Hezbollah. Same agenda(eliminate all infidels), same enemy, different name.

My support is with Israel. I am not asking any of you to support Israel. If you don't want me making statements like the one I did, then don't make them first.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
Israel was promised to the Jewish people. It belongs to them. God gave it to them.

Xango promised me your house. It belongs to me.

If everybody starts claiming whatever God, spirit or ghost promised them we'll all be chopping each other to bits in no time.

That is why your sort of "Chrisian" is ruining the world, and is in fact no better than all those Muslims you hate so much.

You believe in bombing the entire middle east because there are some terrorists there. Fine, so if any terrorists ever show up in your town, I take it we have your permission to bomb the whole place including your house, right?

I will clarify here that I do not for a second believe that the sort of fascist fundamentalists that LL belongs to speak for Christianity as a whole. There are good and genuine Christians in the world that suffer as a result of those people who use Christ as a weapon and who have allowed their faith to be turned into a tawdry propaganda tool.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 03:56 PM

As long as you are NOT a terrorist, you are welcome in my home anytime. If terrorist take over my house and the only way to get them out is to kill me and all of mine then do it. I have peaceful assurance of where my soul is going when I depart this earth. I have no fear of death because for me to live is Christ, to die is gain.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:00 PM

Here are a couple of items from the 'Mindset of a Believer' thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Haddock:
Lords Lady:

...
YOU advocated "bombing the xxxx out of the Middle east", not me. So don't turn around and recite platitudes about not liking civilian deaths. It's disingenuous.

The Muslim world is not the only place where people spread murderous hatred in God's name. They do it in America, too. We have seen that here. How is a muslim wanting to blow up the World Trade Centre any different than you wanting to "bomb the xxxx" out of their countries? It's murder and destruction in God's name, just the same. Whether you do it with bombs or airpanes is neither here nor there.

I cannot tolerate people who spread hatred, racism and bloodlust in God's name. They are the lowest form of beings. They are worse than Nazis and Communists because at least Nazis and Communists had the decency to leave God out of their savagery. I will always call out the hypocrisy of such people and I will never apologise for it.

Again, PDM and others, what would happen if I got on the forum and advocated the mass murder of Jews, Blacks or Mexicans? Then why is it ok for LL to advocate the mass murder of Arabs and Muslims?
Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
Quote:
Originally posted by janimal:
[b]every timne i start to have a bit of respect for you, you come out with stuff like this and i just think - what a plonker! sick maniac who thrives on death... come on, mate, join the real world.

i am a peace loving dope smoker, but that doesn't mean i'm a total pacifist. if you bomb people you s#deserve to be bombed. by that virtue israel is getting what's coming to them.

how come you guys in america care so much for israel all of a sudden? seems ingenuous to me...

lords lady, i couldn't give a rats xxxx who drew first blood. a bully is a bully. no, the people in the world trade centre did not deserve to die, but america as a country deserved a xxxxxxxxxxx. how come you guys can throw your weight around in dozens of wars over the past few decades, and when it's your turn to take some damage you cry woe to us? if you want to be treated peacefully, lead by example.
Ok first off, I don't feel that innocent people deserve to get bombed. Both Israel, and Lebanon have innocent people getting killed daily. As for your defense that Israel is a bully. Let's look at the definition of bully first.

A bully is someone who uses their size or strength to overcome those who are weaker than them. Now seeing that Israel is about 1/4 the size of any of those surrounding countries, so that leaves the bigger part out. Israel, while having a better military does not have a larger military. So there goes strength.

If the surrounding Arabs wanted, they could attack Israel in force and based on numbers alone wipe them out. But that has already been tried, and it failed. I wonder why?

Now as for the US "throwing it's weight around", who makes the requests for help? We don't I'd much rather see my fellow citizens live a long rewarding life then to see them killed thousands of miles away for some ingrate, who's just going to turn enemy in 10 years and try to destroy us.

If the U.S. didn't step up to all of those real "bullies" around the world, this world would be a seriously different place. You think those people going to work on 9-11 deserved to die? You think they deserved to have some sicko fly a plane into their place of work screaming lalalalala? No. They were civilians doing what civilians do, working.

The people who flew those planes weren't martyrs, they weren't soldiers, they were butchers, plain and simple killers. The people of Hizbollah who hid their weapons in schools, churches, and hospitals, are not heros, or even honorable soldiers. Their sick, twisted terrorist, who involved civilians in a personal political matter. Both in my eyes are cowards who target civilians to take their casualties. [/b]
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000406;p=40
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Haddock:
'Lords Lady:
...
YOU advocated "bombing the xxxx out of the Middle east", ...'

'PDM and others, what would happen if I got on the forum and advocated the mass murder of Jews, Blacks or Mexicans? Then why is it ok for LL to advocate the mass murder of Arabs and Muslims?'

'Since when is "hateful" a swear word?
When someone advocates killing thousands of people they've never even met, I'd say hateful is the appropriate description.'


I think that it is terrible to advocate killing anyone.

I said that I thought that Israel's behaviour was disproportionate.

I said that, while I consider Israel's behaviour disproportionate, I still cannot condone killing of innocent Israelis.

I said: 'Terrorism, murder, hatred are all evil, I don't think that we can say that a bad deed committed by one person is less or more hateful than the same bad deed carried out by another.'

I specifically said to LL: 'I do think that it is wrong to support the slaughter of innocent children, just as I thought that it was wrong to attack the twin towers or the Madrid railways or the London Underground, or the Birmingham pubs.'

'Hateful' isn't a swear word, but it is against the rules to insult another member of the forum. It is important that we all remember to be respectful of each other, even when we disagree strongly with each other. However, as I said to LL, I saw your comment less as a personal insult than as a parallel response to the comment that she had made.

I have to agree that supporting mass slaughter sounds like an attitude full of hatred. That is why I am saying that we must all be careful not to break the rules. I think that this could come somewhere under negative generalisations.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:15 PM

I'm just going to re-post the 'religious forum guidelines':

'The religious forum discusses personal points of view on religious topics. We have some guidelines for participating in our religious discussions.

* No Personal Attacks
We are discussing issues and ideas, not individual people. If you disagree with a person's point of view, address that point of view. Do not make assumptions about or attacks on the person's background, age, gender, race, etc. In essence it does not matter "why" a person holds a point of view. It only matters that they present their point of view and that you discuss that view.

* Stereotypes and Derogatory Statements
Saying things like "all Islamics are terrorists" is obviously untrue and is solely meant to antagonize others. Be as truthful and accurate as you can in your statements. This is a forum for discussing issues, not for harassing people different than yourself. Use language that is non-inflammatory. Don't say things like "you will go to hell, sinner!" We will listen to your point, but we will not listen to swearing or ranting.

* Do Not Take Things Personally
Just as you should not attack other people, you should not assume that posts are meant as personal affronts to you. We are discussing issues and ideas. It is critical that you present your side of the story in a rational way. If a post upsets you, go do something else for a few hours. Come back when you can post your point of view in a logical way.

* All Points of View Welcome
You are welcome to post whatever point of view you have, as long as it is honestly held, stated in logical language and open to further discussion. That is the point of this forum, to discuss issues. If you get upset that we discuss an issue, I'm not sure why you are in a discussion forum.

* No Flaming
If your aim is merely to post something to upset others, that is not the point here. We want truthful statements of points of view. We want to ask each other questions and get answers. If you intend to attack others, or to avoid answering questions, that isn't a good discussion.

Above all, enjoy! Your brain is there to be used. Only by considering new thoughts and pondering different points of view can we truly know and understand the world around us.' [Lisa Shea]
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
Israel was promised to the Jewish people. It belongs to them. God gave it to them.

..[/QB]
I think that Great Britain and her supporters gave it to them ~ and I really think that that could have been a big mistake.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
As long as you are NOT a terrorist, you are welcome in my home anytime. If terrorist take over my house and the only way to get them out is to kill me and all of mine then do it. I have peaceful assurance of where my soul is going when I depart this earth. I have no fear of death because for me to live is Christ, to die is gain.

Blessings,

LL
So, you are really saying that if you and your family were being kept hostage by terrorists, then you would give the authorities permission to bomb your house and your entire neighbourhood, killing all and sundry, including all the kids in the local area?

Do all your friends, neighbours and family know this?

Are they in agreement?
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 08:10 PM

The land of Israel was promised to the Jews way before Britain gave it to them and by someone of much higher authority.

Do my friends or neighbours know what? I am not inviting terrorist to come and bomb my house.
I don't put up a "bomb here" sign on the roof of my house.

Israel is in a very precarious position with enemies who want to destroy them ALL AROUND THEM. Yet Israel is called the bully. One tiny speck of country surround by various much larger countries is a bully.

I love the land of Israel and its people. When I love something I defend it with passion. I took offense to the comments made by janimal regarding bombing Israel and reacted accordingly.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/29/06 11:20 PM

Bullies are often weaklings with strong friends, wouldn't you say?

Israel has strong friends.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 12:15 AM

Yes, Israel has strong friends. I believe this is why the USA is still blessed. Because we support Israel.

There are many things wrong with America, but supporting Israel is not one of them.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
Israel was promised to the Jewish people. It belongs to them. God gave it to them.

Well, not really, some guy who claimed that the 'Lord' told him that this was 'their' promised land! Quite a difference isn't it?

[QUOTE] Originally posted by PDM: I think that Great Britain and her supporters gave it to them ~ and I really think that that could have been a big mistake.
hmmmm, the 'British' who are 'they'?

Thought it was a joint UNO resolution!?
Resolution:

from 1967 to 1973:

Remember the Holocaust, the Exodus...

founding speach of Ben Gourion 1948:


Somewhere (thought in this Forum) has been said/written that 'the Jews' have nothing to 'do' with the Israelis - they are 'only' religious followers.

hmmmmmm.... as they have been known to roam the world for centuries - if not for Millennia - they have very well mixed - as did other ethnic tribes.

Who are 'the Americans'? Where are their roots?
Who are the "american Jews" - who?

Where did they initially come from, why and what for?

Who are the african/american people ....?

Are the Italians of today the Romans of yesterday?

Does this all matter? Is it not all taken a wee bit too far?

Let them live where they wish to live, so let the Palestinians - those who do not wish to live in peace together with other poeple - should be punished if the commit crimes against their neighbours - but then who will play the judge - who is going to build the court?

The world is at it since many years now and where are we? 1967? or 2006? almost 40 years have passed and which results have 'we' been able to draw - with all this incredible machinery, the UN, all these institutions, meetings, round tables, promises, money, incentives helped nothin' the terror goes on, so the war goes on...

to take sides would be wrong, cause in this conflict neither is right - all of the involved sides do wrong - but there is some iranian PM comin' to mind who is freely stirring up the xxxx and openly supports terror and it's umbrella organisations, so does (since many years) syria.

Am I wrong here?

Imagine you're down town Tel Aviv, for a weekend stroll with your wife and kids, you suggest to have a cappuccino and some icecream, it's a beautiful day, blue skies, your kiddies are all joyful, then your wife says: "you go and order, while I do look for some clothes over there, she crosses the road with the kids... all of a sudden an incredible eardrum breaking "BANG"! And your wife, your kids are gone, splattered across the street and the wall of the house... many injured, many dead, much devastation...sirenes ... red cross, blood, bodyparts...How many times school- or commuter buses have been the target, how many times have innocent people been randomly killed?

Shall I go on with the London Subway, Madrid, 9/11, all these many, many horrendous acts, costing many, many people their lives or maiming them for their entire life-span - what evil have they done - were they all suporters of an "illegal" State of Israel?

I don't know, but this conflict is not just a conflict between two parties - there is much, much more about it - and certainly Israel, the USA, whatever the choosen target might be in the future - it's born out of an immense hate - growing out of what - fuelled by whom?

There have been some very interesting Forums after the 9/11 regarding this entire 'problem'... it's not Israel - it has (only) become the major target.

And some of the funda-mental-ists have quite a different agenda - the existence of israel, the 'imperialism' of the USA is (IMHO) a simple excuse, a veil.

What would Mr.UbL (if he's still alive and kicking) like to be? What is the target of the radical Funda-mental-ist's?

Didn't Israel started to clear "illegal" occupied land? What happend after Syria cleared his troops from Lebanon?

Ahhh.....well, one should never loose sight of the great picture! Only looking at fragments and pointing fingers is not getting anybody - anywhere!
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 01:00 PM

From Today's NY Times:

Quote:
The missiles destroyed several homes in the village of Qana as people were sleeping. Rescue officials said at least 50 people were killed, and the bodies of 27 children were found in the rubble.

Israeli said it targeted Qana because it was a base for hundreds of rockets launched at Israeli, including 40 that injured five Israelis on Sunday. Israel said it had warned civilians several days before to leave the village.

''One must understand the Hezbollah is using their own civilian population as human shields,'' said Israeli Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir. ''The Israeli defense forces dropped leaflets and warned the civilian population to leave the place because the Hezbollah turned it into a war zone.''

How many leaflets did Hezbollah drop in Haifa before launching missles?

How many leaflets did AlQueada drop on the WTC before 9/11?

Were there ads on the busses in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv warning the passengers that their body parts were about to be blown to bits?

Yes, it's sad that 50 civilians died in Lebanon today, but the Hezzies have brought this on.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 01:30 PM

PDM: you wrote that bullies are weaklings with strong friends. But truly bullies are weaklings who "surround" themselves with strong friends. Not ONE of the countries which surround Israel is a friend to Israel. Israel can be attacked on every side by her many enemies. Yes, she has strong friends such as the USA and Britain. However, please take note that Israel did not request our military support. Unlike the cowardly crybaby terrorists who attack then want the UN to intervene and call off the beast they just provoked.

As has been pointed out before, the WTC did not get warning they were going to be murdered while trying to work. At least Israel has the decency to inform civilians of their intent. Terrorists just strike without warning. Their aim is all of us "infidels" and unless you are a Muslim that includes you.

Where do the terrorist store their weapons? In schools, in civilians homes, in hospitals, how very admirable.

Israel was promised to the Jews by God. But since many of you have stated that you do not believe the scriptures I can understand why you don't believe that statement either. Other countries facilitated the return of the Jews to the nation which was theirs to begin with.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 06:13 PM

When we in the UK were experiencing terrorist attacks in the 1970s, they gave 'warnings'. It didn't alter the fact that when their bombs exploded, these were acts of terrorism.

As long as ones strong friends are in a position to help one, it doesn't matter that they are not living next door.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 06:47 PM

Really. Very interesting. How did they warn you?

I can tell you the people at the WTC got no warning (now I am beginning to sound like you with the Amalekite babies going on about the WTC).

I just have zero tolerance for evil people with evil agendas.

And yes if your strong friends are in a position to help, then more power to you. But Israel has sought no military help from the US, where as the terrorist now want the UN to intervene. I feel very sorry for the private citizens of Lebanon, but they are being used as pawns by Iran which is itching to have a battle with the US. If Lebanon wants peace, I say kick Hezbollah out. They are the ones causing the problem, no? Israel even went so far as to promise protection to the people fleeing Lebanon (Americans, Canadians, French, etc.). I have heard no such promise from Hezbollah.

Just for example, if I came down with an illness and was totally alone in my home. Who would be most likely to help me? My neighbors who are right next door or my friends in Japan? Of course if my neighbors were my mortal enemies, they would just let me die without assisting me in my cry for help. Sound familiar?

With Israel, it is surround by country after country which would like nothing better than to see it gone totally and all its inhabitants dead. So that they can move in. However, even if that happened, those very same people would gain nothing from the land. This land thrives because of its occupants. Any other occupants and the land will wither.

And the violence continues. Just yesterday a jihadist killed one woman in a Jewish temple in Seattle, Washington. The synagogues have already been put on alert to watch for suspicious activity. I am sorry, but people should not have to live like this. They should be able to worship when and where they like without fear of death or bodily harm.

If that makes me sound harsh it is just a reality. I personally take no pleasure that people perish but again it is why it is called war and not Disney World.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/30/06 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Galacticus
Originally posted by LordsLady:

"Israel was promised to the Jewish people. It belongs to them. God gave it to them."


Well, not really, some guy who claimed that the 'Lord' told him that this was 'their' promised land! Quite a difference isn't it?

Originally posted by PDM:

"I think that Great Britain and her supporters gave it to them ~ and I really think that that could have been a big mistake."


hmmmm, the 'British' who are 'they'?

Thought it was a joint UNO resolution!??


There was no UN at the time I was talking about. Palestine was a British mandate from 1919 to 1948, having previously been part of the Ottoman Empire which was dissolved after the First World War. Palestine was once the Jewish homeland, true enough, but that was 2000 years ago. In 1919 the Jews were only a small minority of the Palestinian population. It was the Brits who oversaw large - scale Jewish immigration to Palestine during this period. After the Second World War, more Jews started arriving and the Jews and Arabs started fighting it out. At that point the Brits got out and handed the mess over to the newly-formed UN.

From the Arab point of view, therefore, the Jews shouldn't have been there in the first place - Palestine had been Arab land for many centuries and it was only very recently that the Jews had started arriving and taking over.

They had a point.

The Arab-Israeli conflict has not been going on for thousands of years, as some of you seem to think. It didn't exist until the twentieth century!!!

And it came about as a direct result of Western imperialism. Specifically, British imperialism. As A Brit, it gives me no pleasure to say that, but it happens to be true.

However!

Having said all of that, the State of Israel has been in existence for over half a century now, and some would say, it has earned its right to exist. We can't put the clock back. The majority of moderate Arabs are now recognising this, but there are still a substantial percentage of Arab militants who think otherwise.

In a way, it's a similar mess to the Northern Ireland problem.

By the way, it's a big mistake to lump all the Arabs together with Al-Qaeda and say, they are all the same, all terrorists. Most Arabs want nothing to do with Al-Qaeda.

Even Hezbollah has NO links whatsoever with bin Laden and the WTC attack. In fact, Hezbollah condemned the WTC attack (though they have themselves been involved in other acts of terror).

I do not agree with Hezbollah's agenda or their rocket attacks on Israeli towns, by the way, but I also cannot condone some of the things Israel is doing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorry.

The best way out of this current crisis would be for a UN peacekeeping force to move into southern Lebanon and set up a buffer between the two sides. But until our leaders get their act into gear, that isn't going to happen and civilians will continue to die.

Does anyone really think this is the 'Will of God?'
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 12:07 PM

Thanks for clarifying the history, JoeB. I'm interested in it and I have read some things, but it certainly isn't an area that I have studied.

As I said, I think that Britain & co made a big mistake back then, but who could be sure what might happen. Britain probably still had the mentality of imperialism going on.

And I think I pretty much agree with your other comments.

Will of God???

What kind of God would will this on his creations??
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:

Really. Very interesting. How did they warn you?

Don't know the details, but coded messages were phoned in to those who might recognise what it was all about and pass on the warnings. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Sometimes there probably wasn't a warning or wasn't time to react. I'm not sure.


I can tell you the people at the WTC got no warning (now I am beginning to sound like you with the Amalekite babies going on about the WTC).

I know.

Do you think that Israel's disproportionate bombing of babies in the Lebanon is going to help or hinder when it comes to international terrorism?

Did Lebanese peasants attack the twin towers?


I just have zero tolerance for evil people with evil agendas.

Me too!
And zero tolerance for baby killers.


And yes if your strong friends are in a position to help, then more power to you. But Israel has sought no military help from the US, where as the terrorist now want the UN to intervene.

Israel doesn't need to ask the US for help ~ everyone considers them to be allies anyway.
The UN needs to intervene - to stop the slaughter.


I feel very sorry for the private citizens of Lebanon, but they are being used as pawns by Iran which is itching to have a battle with the US.

Are they?
I don't really know about this?


If Lebanon wants peace, I say kick Hezbollah out. They are the ones causing the problem, no?

They were discussing this on the radio this morning and it seems that Hezbollah would stop their fighting if Israel left their territory and freed their kidnapped prisoners ~ so it seems that this works both ways.


Israel even went so far as to promise protection to the people fleeing Lebanon (Americans, Canadians, French, etc.). I have heard no such promise from Hezbollah.

The counter argument to this is that Israel bombed the roads and bridges so that the people couldn't get out.
Remember Israeli casualties are far lower in number ~ I also condemn those killings, of course.

...

With Israel, it is surround by country after country which would like nothing better than to see it gone totally and all its inhabitants dead. So that they can move in.

I am not doubting that, so I can understand her vulnerability. Indeed, this, too, was discussed on the radio this morning, but as the presenter said, it is a different issue. Does feeling vulnerable entitle you to slaughter peasants and their children?


However, even if that happened, those very same people would gain nothing from the land. This land thrives because of its occupants. Any other occupants and the land will wither.

'Any other occupants and the land will wither.'

Well, maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. I don't know. Why do you say that?


And the violence continues. Just yesterday a jihadist killed one woman in a Jewish temple in Seattle, Washington. The synagogues have already been put on alert to watch for suspicious activity. I am sorry, but people should not have to live like this. They should be able to worship when and where they like without fear of death or bodily harm.

I agree entirely.

But if Israel bombs and kills ordinary people, trying to go about their business ~ and remember the number of children amongst the casualties is very high ~ what can they expect?

Their behaviour is likely to contribute to escalating terrorism.

A man phoned in to the programme I heard this morning to say that this was the beginning of World War III. What a frightening thought!

I got the impression that he expects a war between Islam & 'the infidel'. Now, if that really happens, we really are all going to have to consider who we side with ~ and I don't think there will be much opportunity for choice, actually, and I think that this explains a lot.

But we don't want a world war. Surely it is possible to live in relative harmony.

I consiider Israel to be an artificial country. The land of the locals was taken from them. Anyone in that position would fight. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.


...Blessings,

LL
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 03:42 PM

PDM: where do you think the weapons Lebanon has are coming from? As far as being used by Iran, I guess that would depend on which commentators you listen to or what news station. According to what we hear in the USA, Hezbollah is using weapons provided by both Syria and Iran. And the sadder part is that they are using Lebanese citizens as human shields.

In my opinion, Israel is only defending their right to exist as a nation.

I don't know that there has been disproportionate amount of baby killings by Israel. Keep in mind that it is fair to state that the Lebanese are going to state many civilians were killed to obtain sympathy from the rest of the world. In my opinion, both countries have contributed equally.

Israel, again a very small country, has never had real peace. Their children cannot play outside without fear. There are walls that separate Israel from Arab nations. The walls came down in Germany but went up in Israel.

Sad that we have to live like that in this modern day and age.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 04:08 PM

I found an interesting article this morning. It talks of pictures aquired by an Australian photographer which show how Hezbollah is hiding their weapons in Lebanon.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0%2C%2C19955774-5007220%2C00.html

Also that bombing yesterday is being called into question. Apparently the building was bombed at 1am, but didn't collapse until 8am, giving people plenty of time to escape.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3283816%2C00.html

If Hezbollah were waging a media war, and I think it is, it would benifit them to stage this thing to look like a strike that took out civilians, as oppossed to them piling already dead civilians into a building and then blowing it.

It doesn't lessen the cassualties, but it does make Israel out to be the meany by targeting civilian areas. Unfortunatly we'll never be able to get CSI in there to find out what really happened, so I guess it's just who you're inclined to believe.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 04:24 PM

Yes, I think there's a big danger of the lines being drawn and this whole thing being viewed more and more as a struggle between Western and Islamic civilisation.

If that happens, get ready, because terrorism will increase a hundredfold. We could end up seeing suicide bombings on a daily basis on the streets of Britain and America.

Is that what we want?

Surely we need to stop this now, before it gets totally out of control.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 04:48 PM

I agree. Something must be done to stop this madness. You are correct when you state that we will see increased suicide bombings in the US and England. That is the terrorist MO and unless they come up with something different, they will continue to destroy lives with their hatred for anyone who does not share their views.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and Lebanon.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 04:55 PM

Believer, you are correct. Thanks for sharing those photos. This proves what cowards these terrorists are.

Good point about the building collapse....took longer to collapse than the WTC. Who knows if they even bombed it themselves. They certainly would not lose sleep over it if that was the case.

And for the record, I do not like CSI....disgusting program, showing bullet trajectories, etc. Please no hate mail from you CSI fans. I rather watch comedies anyday. Life is already too serious.

Pray for peace in Jerusalem and Lebanon.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
Yes, I think there's a big danger of the lines being drawn and this whole thing being viewed more and more as a struggle between Western and Islamic civilisation.

If that happens, get ready, because terrorism will increase a hundredfold. We could end up seeing suicide bombings on a daily basis on the streets of Britain and America.

Is that what we want?

Surely we need to stop this now, before it gets totally out of control.
It is already totally out of control.

This is yet another skirmish that was started back in 1066 with the first crusade.

It is clearly Islamic vs. Western.

And Allah is winning.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 08:19 PM

Prayer changes everything.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 08:23 PM

I guess the Muslims are praying harder then.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 09:27 PM

I don't know about harder, but I can certainly attest to more frequently. Having been in Jerusalem, I was witness to their prayers five times a day....it comes on over the loadspeakers every where. There is no where to hide.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
I agree. Something must be done to stop this madness. You are correct when you state that we will see increased suicide bombings in the US and England. That is the terrorist MO and unless they come up with something different, they will continue to destroy lives with their hatred for anyone who does not share their views.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and Lebanon.

Blessings,

LL
Yes, but that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make.

Most Arabs are not terrorists.

Most Muslims are not terrorists.

But the quickest way to turn an apolitical Muslim Arab into a terrorist is to go and blow away his house and waste his family.

Al Quaeda must be laughing, because all this must be bringing them more recruits than ever before.

The 'War on Terror' will not be won this way.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 11:17 PM

That's what I think, too.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 07/31/06 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
[b] Yes, I think there's a big danger of the lines being drawn and this whole thing being viewed more and more as a struggle between Western and Islamic civilisation.

If that happens, get ready, because terrorism will increase a hundredfold. We could end up seeing suicide bombings on a daily basis on the streets of Britain and America.

Is that what we want?

Surely we need to stop this now, before it gets totally out of control.
It is already totally out of control.

This is yet another skirmish that was started back in 1066 with the first crusade.

It is clearly Islamic vs. Western.

And Allah is winning. [/b]
I don't agree that it's totally out of control just yet.

Yes, historically there have been major clashes between Islamic and Western civilisation. It goes back further even than the Crusades, actually, to the eighth century when the Muslims invaded Europe and were eventually stopped by Charles Martel. By the way, the First Crusade was in 1095, not 1066 :p

But I don't think that these historic conflicts mean that conflict is inevitable today. I honestly don't think it's too late to take the heat out of it. Not yet. But to do that, we have to isolate the extremists, not play into their hands. A clash of civilisations is what the Islamic extremists want. It isn't what the majority of Muslims want. It isn't what the majority of Westerners want.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 02:17 AM

Not to sound unsympathetic, but why is so much attention focused on how many people were killed by Israel? Israel is defending themselves in a war. Innocent people get hurt in wars. I am not happy about it, but that is reality.

Just as real as the innocent people killed by terrorists on 9/11. I will never forget the image of Muslims celebrating in the street when our country (USA) was attacked. Did we see any Muslims apologize for that? I don't remember any apologies. All I remember is laughter that the infidels had been taught a lesson. We should never take delight in the misery of others. When we do, we become just as low they.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 05:51 AM

@All:

Wars are the result of deep conflicts - a safety valve - so to say.

If the Hezbollah and Hammas stopped their bombings and launching of rockets, there would be no reason for Israeli Forces to retaliate!

If Syria and Lebanon, which is still stronlgy under Syrian Influence, wouldn't support Hammas and Hezbollah there would be no Bombs...there would be no Kanaa.

If, they would accept the presence of Israel there would be no Conflict and all could prosper - but until there are Forces who are openly suggest that "Zionism should be wiped of the face of the world"! And that there is only one god and this is ALLAH! There will be Conflict - the seed is sawn anew every Second!

Maybe there are People who favor conflict over peace, may there are people who have a complete different agenda, a hidden one and Israel is (only) the stage, not really the target!

May I remember you that there are radical fundamentalistic forces behind of some of the "terrorist Movements"?

Remember the dream of the Caliphate, no it's not a dream, it's a prophecy!

If it is rebuild, completed the Prophet will return... wasn't it?

And what more to dream of, whilst the Superiors spending the Oilbillions on expensive Luxurycars, Luxurydevelopment, Luxuries in any imagineable Fashion and six star lifestyle.

Whilst their "Brothers" dream of these Dreams between the Rubble, Rocks and Sands of the Desert, sipping tea and coffee and listening to the "Prayers" of their Imam 5 x times a day.

And some of them are just filled with so much hatred, well I on mybehalf, can understand very, very well, too well... that there must be a "ton" of willing recruits out there.

This "problem" is very much homemade - and then exported - quite smart - i think.

Gaza is the densest populated area in the middle east, the most impoverished, and has the highest % of young men between the age of 14 and 32 (or so) and (of course) few have a job...and fewer a future.

This is the "Problem", the root of much it all.
Look at the "Demonstrations", at the "Liberationterrorarmy"...so many young faces - before they turn against their Superiors, turn 'em against an 'enemy'.

Saudi Arabia has send for many, many years willing 'scholars' to Pakistan and to Afghanistan = first to fight "the russian Intrusion into Islam", then into the Madrassas (religious Schools) - the Students of these Schools are called: Taleban....

Anyone getting a glimpse?

ObL was a "Product" of the Afghanistan-Russian War!

Why did Russia invade Afghanistan and why did they had to leave?


Well, well, well....there is still much to do, before we can join a peaceful Worldcommunity and all have (unconditioned) fun!

Everybody talks about it, but few seem to really want it.

That makes me feel really sorry, very sad and leaves a bad taste behind.
Posted by: LordsLady

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 11:28 AM

Thank you for stating truth. This in my opinion is a "no win" situation.

True the battle has raged for thousands of years and will continue to do so. That innocent people are caught in the crossfire is very sad and deplorable. But it is nonetheless the consequences of going to war.

All I do is pray that they will come to their senses and that God's will may be done in this conflict very soon.

Blessings,

LL
Posted by: infiniteprocessprophet

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 05:12 PM

What I meant by the middle east situation is man-made, is that Religion has nothing to do with it. The major motives in play are political not spiritual. Spiritual motives may be used by terrorists or whoever to employ the faith of others but the Bible (and possibly the Koran as well) should be left out of it.

Otherwise, we will find ourselves in a heated WWIII that will have everyone choosing sides based on Propaganda.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 09:50 PM

It's odd, isn't it, that some people see this as a truly Biblical story, while others think that it is much more political.

I'm guessing that it's both. Although money must come into it, somewhere, and some people certainly seem to worship that!
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:


It is clearly Islamic vs. Western.

And Allah is winning.
What is Allah winning?

The west is collapsing from within due to its own corruption and stupidity, but can you name even one Islamic country that is on the up?

Western Civilisation is turning into a spent force, but the Islamic world has been a spent force for the last 500 years. They have nothing new to offer at all.

Our archaist fundamentalists want to take us back to the Victorian age. Their atavists want to go back to the middle ages.

The only thing Allah is winning is the race to the bottom. The next century will belong to the countries of Asia.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/01/06 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LordsLady:
Not to sound unsympathetic, but why is so much attention focused on how many people were killed by Israel? Israel is defending themselves in a war. Innocent people get hurt in wars. I am not happy about it, but that is reality.

Just as real as the innocent people killed by terrorists on 9/11. I will never forget the image of Muslims celebrating in the street when our country (USA) was attacked. Did we see any Muslims apologize for that? I don't remember any apologies. All I remember is laughter that the infidels had been taught a lesson. We should never take delight in the misery of others. When we do, we become just as low they.

Blessings,

LL
Hezbollah also claim to be defending themselves, defending Arabs against what they see as Israeli aggression.

Both sides in any war always claim self-defence. It depends on your point of view. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

In truth both sides have done some pretty horrible things. It isn't a case of one of them being an innocent victim.

I repeat again - this has NOTHING to do with 9/11. 9/11 was the work of Al Quaeda. Hezbollah have NO LINKS WHATSOEVER with Al Quaeda or Bin Laden. The two organisations don't work together, don't agree on anything and don't even like each other.

Once again, you seem to be in danger of assuming ALL Muslims are the same. That because the people who attacked the Twin Towers were Muslims, that means all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. That's like saying Adolf Hitler was an Austrian, therefore all Austrians are Nazis.

Some Muslims did celebrate when the Twin Towers were destroyed. A lot of other Muslims were shocked and repelled by it. Remember, some of the people who died in the Twin Towers were Muslims themselves. Do you think their families celebrated?

Here in the UK, we have faced terrorism for a long time, from the IRA who, not so very long ago,were letting bombs off and killing innocent people all the time for year after year after year. The IRA were Irish Catholics, but that doesn't mean all Irish people or all Catholics are terrorist scum.

You can't lump all the Muslims together and say, they are all the same. It's that kind of hate that leads to disaster.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Galacticus:
@All:


Saudi Arabia has send for many, many years willing 'scholars' to Pakistan and to Afghanistan = first to fight "the russian Intrusion into Islam", then into the Madrassas (religious Schools) - the Students of these Schools are called: Taleban....

Anyone getting a glimpse?

ObL was a "Product" of the Afghanistan-Russian War!

Yes, exactly...and let's not forget, WE - America and Britain - supported the Taliban and Bin Laden during the Soviet-Afghanistan war.

They were just as nasty then as they are now. But the Soviets were our enemy then, so the Taliban were the good guys.

Does nobody remember Rambo III? Where Rambo goes into Afghanistan and helps the heroic Taliban against the nasty Russians?
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Haddock:
Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:
[b]

It is clearly Islamic vs. Western.

And Allah is winning.
What is Allah winning?

The west is collapsing from within due to its own corruption and stupidity, but can you name even one Islamic country that is on the up?

Western Civilisation is turning into a spent force, but the Islamic world has been a spent force for the last 500 years. They have nothing new to offer at all.

Our archaist fundamentalists want to take us back to the Victorian age. Their atavists want to go back to the middle ages.

The only thing Allah is winning is the race to the bottom. The next century will belong to the countries of Asia. [/b]
The fastest growing religion is Islam,despite their backwardsness in everything modern.

Western countries are becoming more Muslimized, even to the point where some countries are allowing Muslims to use Sharia instead of common law.

They are taking over, either by migration or sword.

So much for Jesus' "Kingdom of God is at Hand"
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
... the Brits got out and handed the mess over to the newly-formed UN.
Well, I love this, so it's finally the Brit's, please don't get me wrong but who is bombing whom - are the Brits still involved?

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
From the Arab point of view, therefore, the [QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
[QB]Jews shouldn't have been there in the first place - Palestine had been Arab land for many centuries and it was only very recently that the Jews had started arriving and taking over.

They had a point.
Sure, they have 'a point', so did Mr.Schickelhuber, didn't he? Or Mr.Mugabe,. or Saddam going into Kuwait...

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
..... I also cannot condone some of the things Israel is doing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorry.
Undestandable, than where do these "Jews" should go off to? And who the heck gives the "Palestinians" the right to ignore a joint UN resolution - that what th UN was initially set up for, wasn't it?

Should Germany then, claim the Alsace and it's other territories back? If we start here, where to stop? Australia back into the hands of it's original population, the USA, looking further to Sth.America, Iraq, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Tibet?

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
The best way out of this current crisis would be for a UN peacekeeping force to move into southern Lebanon and set up a buffer between the two sides. But until our leaders get their act into gear, that isn't going to happen and civilians will continue to die.
I thought it has been tried Ages ago, the "Blue Helmets" have no power - what we need is waht has lately benn in discussion - a "rapid response army" under the UN-Security Councils supervison.

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
Does anyone really think this is the 'Will of God?'
No, absolutely not, but also not the will of "the English", nor that of anybody else, except the directly involved parties.

And if the One colludes with the Other, or some are 'different', they all (Hezbollah, Hammas, Fatah, al Quaeda, Taleban etc.) they all going for the same course, no merci, no acceptance, not willing to give in, no compromises.

Wasn't Israel starting to clear "illegal settlement" even against the will of the settlers?

Wern't their troops again and again attacked - is it right then - because they 'shouldn't be there in the first place, but (damned) they are - could anyone beam them back to where they ever came from?

Could that be the solution? No it can't - so what?
back to the negotiating table?

Spending Millions to no avail - didn't a european Commsion made findings that Arafat "illegally" but still, used European Aid money to finance his loyal terrorist cells?

Yep, all nice guy's those people involved, they just want "their" land back....wow, makes me breathless!

Anyone aware who Arafat really was? He was like the child of Hagar, egyptian born, NOT a "Palestinian". And anyone aware of who, if it wasn't his Uncle, he was his great Mentor, the Great Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and exactly this this Guy had an Audience with Mr.Schickelhuber in Berlin 1933!

How many Terror-Attacks had the World, especially the western World to face since? What does these People have to do with it?

Aren't they just as innocent as the large bunch of Arabs who do not share or support these Fanatics?

Why did Syria train the German RAF in the 60-70ies?

The hijacking of the Lufthansa Jet which endet up in Mogadishu was rehearsed in the Bekaa Area in Syria.

What do we "owe" them?

Or should it simply be taken as "they" (the fundamentalists) proclaim what it is - a Djihad?

I think the posting by 'Believer' shows some very high significance on how and by whom this conflict is directed...
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs:
Quote:
Originally posted by Galacticus:
[b] @All:


Saudi Arabia has send for many, many years willing 'scholars' to Pakistan and to Afghanistan = first to fight "the russian Intrusion into Islam", then into the Madrassas (religious Schools) - the Students of these Schools are called: Taleban....

Anyone getting a glimpse?

ObL was a "Product" of the Afghanistan-Russian War!

Yes, exactly...and let's not forget, WE - America and Britain - supported the Taliban and Bin Laden during the Soviet-Afghanistan war.

They were just as nasty then as they are now. But the Soviets were our enemy then, so the Taliban were the good guys.
[/b]
Well, so it was the peak of "the cold war" the real enemy was the USSR!

But in my opinion the fact had been overlooked that all of a sudden the 'friend' became a fow - inspired by 'their vitory' against the russians (no american rockets, no logistics, no intelligence, no victory) by then a "world power" - under different circumstances such action is also called treason!

who, by then, could have known that this world power (USSR) will collapse only two years into the future????

- then the "victorious Mudjaheddin" simply kept training volunteers from all over the place (see my post) and the next was taken on, the other remaining world power - those guys do have a agenda - their Djihad - the Caliphate - believe it or not!

Hussein, yes was supported against Iran, yes everyone 'knew' he was an evil guy, but what to do? Let the Ayatollas rule the entire far & middle east?

Why do so few western people see who is who in the middle & far east - and who has which Agenda?

Who would have concluded that he finnaly will turn against his supporters?????? Who? I say some of these guy's are simply power obsessed nutters - see his (late) sons, see Mr.Gaddhafi, see Mr.Pres. of Iran...

it's another cold war raging - as someone else posted earlier - where has the entire islamic community gone since the moores or the sarracenes - where did they got stuck in the last 500 years or so?

What would have happened if there wouldn't be any Oil..?

Maybe here is somewhere the problem embedded, inferiority complex, maybe?
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Galacticus:
... where do these "Jews" should go off to? And who the heck gives the "Palestinians" the right to ignore a joint UN resolution - that what th UN was initially set up for, wasn't it?

Should Germany then, claim the Alsace and it's other territories back? If we start here, where to stop? ...
Well, I think Joe said that, since the Jews have been there for half a century, it's a done deed and something needs to be resolved, but Israel was put there artificially and the Palestinians don't have a country. That simply isn't fair, surely?

Should Germany claim Alsace?
You think not?
Then why should the Jews have claim to 'Israel'?

What do you think would happen if another country, or even the UN, confiscated Alsace and told France that, henceforth, it would belong to the Germans?

It's not even as if Palestine exists for its own people. Why should Palestinians be restricted in their own land by Israel?
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/02/06 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PDM:
...Why should Palestinians be restricted in their own land by Israel?
Well... it looks like they are asking for it relentlessly - or better, they allow people to take on their agenda - for some political reason - why was "the West Bank" called "West Jordan Land"?

What is Irans and Syrias Agenda?

Why there are "Palestinians" since there is the State of Israel?

There is an very intersting Artikel from "Walid Dschumblatt" (no Idea how this would be spelled in English) about the Lebanon Crisis... it is not a mainstraem paper..

Hezbollah is Shia orientated - so is Iran - they are the ones who supply the lebanon Hezbolla with waepons... they are the ones who are responsible for the onslaught....they wanted Israel to make the move - could be the downfall of the state of Israel - but would this all these people who see this State as their Homeland - let happen - I don't think so...


Why I mentioned Alsace was - is that I see it as fruitless to go back and say: "Hey, if....!" Besides Israel does and would do a lot of good for the entire region - maybe thats what ios a factor as well - wrong pride....
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 12:09 AM

Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 12:57 AM

Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 06:41 AM

Thanks Joe, I get your point - think we are holding a rather similar point of view - in fact it is a highly twisted and complicated situation - because it is goin' on for such a long time - maybe since biblical times....and I have my (profounded) doubts that this conflict will ever come to rest.

Unless the supporting Powers (Mainly Iran and Syria), stop their support or their support can be stopped.

There are already plans to seal the syrian border! Remember years ago Israel confiscated the load of an iranian merchant ship - loaded with weapons - ammunition - rockets - the lot - the largest haul they ever laid their hands on?

Concerning "the Agenda" I am 100% certain that some Powers "to be" are working on this for some time by now.

Much of the muslim Community is at 'rest', but one should not overlook the fact that it is a prophecy to be fulfilled by the Umma (muslim community) to errect the caliphate (the worldwide Umma) than the Prophet will return - so it is 'their' agenda!

I am far from branding the general community, but saying it is there in their belief...however.

After all I don't care, if the worldcouncil one day will be of christian, muslim, hindu, jain, buddhist, taoist or agnostic origin.

However, I think it is a very, sad situation right now, my thoughts and feelings go out to the hundreds and thousands affected by this blind madness.

Having lived in muslim communities, travelled within muslim communities frequently and having some frinds from the muslim community. I can frankly say that many, many aren't thinking that "the West" is branding all of them as terrorist'
s - they are too well aware of the situation and none of the people treading the 'ordinary way of life' has anything against "the West". But do have their point of view - about injustices, politics, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, many of them think that it couldn't have gone on and that changes are necessary - the way it happened, changes have come forth, might not always have been the best solution for everyone concerned - but then who is to make always the right, just and perfect decision - like "the English" so many, many years ago!

Who is able to foresee what a dicision, made today, will bear in a couple of years.

Besides wern't it "the English" who actually 'promised' the Arabs their Caliphate - do you know anything about this?

But the incision int to this 'gand plan' was the founding of the State of Israel - a deep cut right into their most sacred dreams.... some can live with this - some refuse right out for ever.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 05:20 PM

I always suspected this building thing was a hoax.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109072
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 05:30 PM

why?
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/03/06 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
I always suspected this building thing was a hoax.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109072
Some reading on the subject:

'Evidence Mounts that Kana "Massacre" Was a Fake'
16:05 Aug 03, '06 / 9 Av 5766
by Hillel Fendel
israelnationalnews.com

'The world awoke Sunday to the news that an Israeli airstrike killed 57 Lebanese civilians, leading Israel to stop airstrikes for 2 days - but evidence indicates the "massacre" may have been a fraud.'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109072

Was Qana A Hoax?
http://partisantimes.typepad.com/partisan_times/2006/07/was_qana_a_hoax.html

Rightwingers See Qana Massacre As Hoax
http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2006/08/rightwingers-see-qana-massacre-as-hoax.html

Qana bombs an Israeli 'war crime'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm

Israeli regret over Qana bombing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5241636.stm
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 12:12 AM

seems illogical to bother to fake a massacre of 57 in a war that has killed hundreds in a couple of weeks, doesn't it? definetely some spin going on here.
Posted by: Galacticus

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 11:46 AM

well under the light of a propaganda war it's not so far fetched - it was one of Arafats most beloved tools!

As well as to pledge for peace and freedom and then turning around and yelling at his followers: "Give me your children!"

They love to blow things out of proportion - but I think it really doesn't matter - everything is out of proportion anyway.

So why bother - sad - all that blood being spilled - lives are shattered - to nobodys avail - that is the saddest of it all.

It just keeps on going costing peoples lives and is delaying any real progress in the development of the entire area - stupid!

Beirut was 'the Rose of the Orient' at the Start of the Century - Racecourses, Casinos, People spoke french and english - the majority was Druse (Christian)

ahhhhhh well.... if they think so, and follow the nutters... let 'em keep it doing... maybe some get a certain satisfaction out of this chaos, maybe some cannot wait or aren't sure if Armageddon will soon or ever come, so they want to hlep it a little....
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 01:41 PM

The "hoax" theory sounds like more hare-brained rightwingery to me (I won't say redneckery because we know how delicate and sensitive somebody gets about it).

The publication cited above hardly seems like a credible source. They have an advertisement for "curing and treating homosexuality" on the top banner.

If it had been a hoax, the Israeli government would not have apologised for it, as they did.


Quote:
Originally posted by Galacticus:
Druse (Christian)

Druze are not Christian. look it up.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 05:39 PM

My honest belief is that Hizbollah is waging what amounts to a publicity war. Like any other terrorist organization, their job is spread fear. The fear that they're spreading in Lebanon and throughout the Arab nations is basically a call to arms. Help us or be destroyed because Israel doesn't care about killing innocents look what they've done to us.

Already Iran, Syria, Hamas, and our friends in Al Quiada have stated that they want to join in. Hizbollah's decision to hide their weapons in schools, churches, and hospitals, around general population is a sure sign of their disregard for their own people. The fact that the number of people who actually died in that blast seems to fluctuate worse than the stock market doesn't do much to bolster their claims in my opinion.

In my opinion the building was probably loaded to the gills with explosives and blew up as a result of those explosives. I go a bit further than some in thinking that they actually dragged people who were already dead into the building prior to detonating it themselves, just to drive up the body count and make the rest of the world step in.

I'm sorry, but I don't exactly see them in the best light since a real soldier would take the fight to other soldiers, and not use their countrymen as sheilds. But again when all you have a coward is the potential to spread fear, then that's what you use.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 06:21 PM

my my there's a lot of conjecture going on here. in my opinion,in my opinion..... i don't think opinions count for much here as there seems to be no-one with first hand knowledge around. better to stick to the facts ie that israel is at this time waging a wildly asymmetrical war.

i would have thought the fear in lebanon is being spread by the israeli army at the moment, as they seem to be doing most of the butt kicking.

by believers definition there is no such thing as a real soldier then because action against civilians has been an integral part of any war i can call to mind. one shouldn't be so quick to call people cowards - its them who are living the situation, and personally i can't imagine how you find the strenghth to do that on either side when the excrement hits the proverbial ventilator.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 06:50 PM

Hey it's not just me who thinks this thing was faked. There are quite a few blogs poping up that are picking the whole thing apart and leaning to the side of it being staged.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/07/was_qana_staged/

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/2200

"What we do know is that sometime after dawn a call went hour to journalists and rescue workers to come to the scene. And come they did, in droves.

While Hezbollah and its apologists have been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there."


http://newsbusters.org/node/6691

"Then there is the nature of the building itself.
Eshel reported that as recently as two days ago, military intelligence reported the building area had been used by the terrorists for storage or firing of weapons. It was a bad place to cram dozens of women and children.
There are other mysteries. The roof of the building was intact. Journalist Ben Wedeman of CNN noted that there was a larger crater next to the building, but observed that the building appeared not to have collapsed as a result of the Israeli strike.

Why would the civilians who had supposedly taken shelter in the basement of the building not leave after the post-midnight attack? They just went back to sleep and had the bad luck to wait for the building to collapse in the morning.

Then there are the suspicious bodies.
There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.
Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead.

But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination clearly is called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days."


Just Google Qana staged and look at the overwhelming amount of results for something that is only 5 days old.

As for action against civilians being part of war, yes and no. If the war is purposely being waged from within civilian areas for the sake of using civilians as sheilds, then it is wrong, and those doing it are cowards no matter who they are. If the action ends up in someone's back yard due to movement in fronts and soldiers taking a stand in a certain location then no they're not cowards. They're just defending the front, which happens to be in a civilian area.

When Hizbollah purposly sets up their weapons in civilian homes, schools, churches, and hospitals as a means to hide their weapons and then cry foul when those places are hit, then they are cowards. It's one thing to place weapons outside the perimeter of a city to defend that city. But another to put them within the city simply to later move them and allow the family that occupies the house to pay the price.
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 07:12 PM

[quote][b]There are quite a few blogs poping up that are picking the whole thing apart and leaning to the side of it being staged. [/b][/quote]A few blogs and a dollar will buy you a can of Coke. But anyway, none of us was there to see what happened, so whatever we say about it is just taking stabs in the dark. I think you have picked your side in this conflict, so you will automatically tend to believe what they say. I think there is no side worth taking. There are no good guys in that part of the world; it is a hornetís nest and any involvement in it will end up being the downfall of America and the western world. Best not touched with a bargepole. But I must say, I do find this conflict rather strange. For starters, Hezbollah is not a Palestinian group. It is Lebanese. Their agenda lies primarily in the Lebanon. They have no special designs on Israeli territory or resources that I am aware of; so why are they attacking Israel? And then Israel, too, has basically been dragged into a conflict in Lebanon in which it doesnít really have any vital national interests at stake. Instead of going after Hezbollah and the missile sites, they seem to be randomly attacking the civilian infrastructure of a fledgling democracy on its borders, making the situation there that much more unstable. What do they want? I suspect Hezbollah is trying to destabilize the Lebanese government so Syria can come back in and occupy. They are probably laughing every time the Israelis blow up a Lebanese airport or shopping mall: all that stuff is owned by their internal Lebanese enemies, anyway. Iím really not sure what game Israel is playing, though.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/04/06 07:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. Haddock: [b]I suspect Hezbollah is trying to destabilize the Lebanese government so Syria can come back in and occupy. They are probably laughing every time the Israelis blow up a Lebanese airport or shopping mall: all that stuff is owned by their internal Lebanese enemies, anyway. Iím really not sure what game Israel is playing, though. [/b][/quote]You're probably not too far off on this part. Either way it's a media war for Hizbollah, and a way to bring more aggressors to the party against Israel.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 01:56 AM

and israel would know all about agressors, wouldn't it? and illegal occupations. they certainly shouldn't be playing the victim in this. i'm not sure about hezbollah's agenda. i don't think they can be called a purely palestinian group anyway - their support in lebanon seems to be growing very rapidly now with every bombardment by the israeli army. so maybe hezbollah's agenda is just one of solidarity with israel's disgruntled neighbours... interestingly there seems to be growing support among lebanese muslims, jews and christians alike.

but i'm not convinced israel is going after hezbollah either. what do bridges, roads, fuel depots, refugees ,aid convoys, farms and un outposts have to do with hezbollah? to my mind absolutely nothing. so why is israel bombing these? looks like systematic dismanteling of lebanons infrastructure to me.

i hope this isn't a roundabout way of engineering a military conflict between america and iran - we'd all be in the crap then. israel has a bottomless war purse via america, and there are already massive demonstrations of solidarity with hezbollah in iran. i should imagine there will be rumbelings in iraq as well although we're unlikely to find out as the us are onl;y just starting to make overtures toward acknowledging a civil war there.
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by janimal:
i'm not sure about hezbollah's agenda. i don't think they can be called a purely palestinian group anyway - their support in lebanon seems to be growing very rapidly now with every bombardment by the israeli army.
Hezbollah isn't remotely palestinian. It's a grouping of Lebanese shiites that was initially formed to fight the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon back in the 1980's.

And yes, from what I've heard, Hezbollah's positioins in Southern Lebanon are well known, but Israel isn't attacking them and is instead busy dismantling Lebanese infrastructure.

Today's Economists suggestss that it really is just a proxy war between Iran and the US, but then again, what does Iran have to gain in Lebanon or Israel?

I'm beginning to suspect that the whole thing was just a way to drag Israel into a quagmire, just like 9/11 was a means to drag the US into a quagmire and weaken it. But I'm shocked that the Israelis would have been dumb enough to fall for it, just like the Bushistas did.
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 05:02 PM

By attacking the infrastructure, they are cutting off Hezbollah's supply routes.

No supplies, no more rockets, no more food.

That's how you fight a conventional war.
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 05:17 PM

But this is not a conventional war against a conventional enemy.

Hezbollah has probably stockpiled enough arms and supplies to last them a good long while.

Meanwhile, they are laughing their butts off watching all the Christians', Sunnis' and Druzes' stuff getting blown up.

What few supplies they need they can probably get anyway, unless you completely seal off the whole country for months and starve the entire population.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 05:28 PM

so what supply routes are disabled by bombing refugees, aid and a un outpost?

cappy - of course hezbollah is lebanese. thats what i meant. i guess i fell over myself after finishin my last blim of peshawari charas. ohmmmm...
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/05/06 09:13 PM

Remember what you said about sharing! wink
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 10:07 AM

it's one of the curses of really good hash that it always makes you forget to pass on the reefer. my apologies - i'll try harder to observe etiquette in future.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 02:04 PM

More interesting news about the pictures we've been seeing in Qana.

Aparently someone at Reuters has admitted to doctoring photos to make the devistation look worse than it is.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html#n
http://www.leftandright.us/index.php/site/reuters_faking_photos/

Also there seems to be a common thread with all of these disaster photos. There seems to be be this guy who has appeared in quite a few Lebonese photos as far back as 1996. The same person who doctored the photos above is also responsible for some of the photos we saw of Qana. The thought is that it's a Hizbollah plot to get sympathy from the rest of the world.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/green-helmet-mystery-continues.html
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 04:11 PM

very weird. it's hard to imagine how anyone thought they'd get away with the smoke thing. you can see the photoshop clone stamping at a glance. it's worth noting though that the 'undoctored' version doesn't actually contain a lot less smoke.

this and the green helmet thing looks to me like an unscrupulus journalist maximising his profits by sensationalising his tories and fleshing them out. not a new phenomenon. just another scumbag lining his pockets on other peoples misery.

the kids in the photo would have had its head blown off whether this character was there or not. note the other people snapping away. in my opinion there is something seriously wrong with anyone who points a camera at a scene like that. thats not journalism, its morbid fascination.

i'm not sure how meaningful it is on a political level. i'm inclined to think that hezbollah would have got sympathy without the doctored pictures. i get a lot of my mainstream news on the radio, so this stuff doesn't even apply there.
Posted by: Capt. Haddock

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 04:47 PM

Modern war involves a lot of propaganda and sound bites.

Hezbollah aren't the only ones engaging in it.

As a matter of fact, I'd class them as amateur propagandists.

When Hezbollah develops one tenth of the lobbying/propaganda capabilities that the Israelis have here in Washington, then we can talk about a media war.

But those boys learn quickly.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 05:46 PM

I agree janimal, I think it's disgusting to show this type of stuff. Most journalist would call it "provocative" or "cutting edge". They'll claim that it's just news, but in my opinion it's gross, and I usually just tune it out.

I think that journalists should stick to telling the news, and not putting spin on anything or doctoring the photos to push an agenda. Again, I agree it's some guy's scheme to make money off the deaths of innocents.
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:
Also there seems to be a common thread with all of these disaster photos. There seems to be be this guy who has appeared in quite a few Lebonese photos as far back as 1996.
this wouldn't be the same guy who supposedly was on top of the world trade center when it was hit?

(or watching the hindenburg, or in JFK's car....)
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/07/06 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Believer:

I think that journalists should stick to telling the news, and not putting spin on anything or doctoring the photos to push an agenda.
And yet, you're quite content to live with 2000 year old spin called the New Testament canon.

I find it odd that none of the believers here have made comments about the additions found in John, Mark, etc.

If that's not spin, or doctoring the original texts to push an agenda, what is?
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 12:49 AM

can you feel the love in this room?
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 01:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mbas400:And yet, you're quite content to live with 2000 year old spin called the New Testament canon.

I find it odd that none of the believers here have made comments about the additions found in John, Mark, etc.

If that's not spin, or doctoring the original texts to push an agenda, what is?
What are you babbeling about?
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 02:14 AM

seems quite a clear point to me.
Posted by: mbas400

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 02:40 AM

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000585

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000586

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000573

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000577

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000580

Just to link a few.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 08:59 AM

are you trying to get a straight answer here? you poor naive thing. you are obviously unfamiliar with our evasive earth ways. return to the mothership and tell them to go ahead with the demolition of the earth and the building of the hyperspace express way. no great loss down here.
Posted by: Believer

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/08/06 01:55 PM

No offense mbas, but I haven't had time to look at all of the threads you spawn. I concentrate on a few, look for others if they catch my attention, but for the most part I have alot of stuff to do in a day, and can't sit answering every question, or even looking at every thread you people put up.

I'll look at them when I get some time, and try to answer as much as I can.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/15/06 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Galacticus:
Thanks Joe, I get your point - think we are holding a rather similar point of view - in fact it is a highly twisted and complicated situation - because it is goin' on for such a long time - maybe since biblical times....and I have my (profounded) doubts that this conflict will ever come to rest.

Unless the supporting Powers (Mainly Iran and Syria), stop their support or their support can be stopped.

There are already plans to seal the syrian border! Remember years ago Israel confiscated the load of an iranian merchant ship - loaded with weapons - ammunition - rockets - the lot - the largest haul they ever laid their hands on?

Concerning "the Agenda" I am 100% certain that some Powers "to be" are working on this for some time by now.

Much of the muslim Community is at 'rest', but one should not overlook the fact that it is a prophecy to be fulfilled by the Umma (muslim community) to errect the caliphate (the worldwide Umma) than the Prophet will return - so it is 'their' agenda!

I am far from branding the general community, but saying it is there in their belief...however.

After all I don't care, if the worldcouncil one day will be of christian, muslim, hindu, jain, buddhist, taoist or agnostic origin.

However, I think it is a very, sad situation right now, my thoughts and feelings go out to the hundreds and thousands affected by this blind madness.

Having lived in muslim communities, travelled within muslim communities frequently and having some frinds from the muslim community. I can frankly say that many, many aren't thinking that "the West" is branding all of them as terrorist'
s - they are too well aware of the situation and none of the people treading the 'ordinary way of life' has anything against "the West". But do have their point of view - about injustices, politics, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, many of them think that it couldn't have gone on and that changes are necessary - the way it happened, changes have come forth, might not always have been the best solution for everyone concerned - but then who is to make always the right, just and perfect decision - like "the English" so many, many years ago!

Who is able to foresee what a dicision, made today, will bear in a couple of years.

Besides wern't it "the English" who actually 'promised' the Arabs their Caliphate - do you know anything about this?

But the incision int to this 'gand plan' was the founding of the State of Israel - a deep cut right into their most sacred dreams.... some can live with this - some refuse right out for ever.
Sorry it took me a while to reply.....been away to the coast for a week or two.

I agree that the Middle East problem is much wider than Israel vs the Palestinians or Israel vs Hezbollah - it's become interwoven in a much bigger 'clash of civilisations' between the Muslim / Arab world and the Western world, Israel being in the Western camp and backed by its Western Allies, Hezbollah backed by Iran and Syria. In a way, it's 'war by proxy'.

And again, the clash between East and West isn't exactly new either - it's been going on since the eighth century - but on the other hand, it strikes me that during the Cold War nobody in the West was particularly worried about the Muslim 'threat'. OK, even then we had the Ayatollah and Quadaffi, but with all eyes focused on the Soviet Union and the demons of Communism, militant Islam seemed like an almost minor threat by comparison.

Yes, I think you're right that the average Arab Muslim doesn't have any big beef against the West, probably doesn't care too much about Israel either.....but the quickest way to turn that average, moderate Arab into a raving terrorist sympathiser is to bomb his neighbourhood, blow away his house and waste a few of his friends. That's not to say all terrorists are created in this way - far frrom it - it seems to me that many of them are simply brainwashed individuals...but there's no doubt conflict boosts recruitment for terrorist groups.

I don't know if the British actually promised the Arabs their Caliphate during WWI, but I know we gave assurances of support, as well as practical military help, for the cause of Arab nationalism (many Arabs were under the rule of the Turkish Ottoman Empire at that time.) The Arab nationalists did see the war as the key to a great new dawn for the Arab peoples, and most likely some of them were dreaming of a Arab Caliphate. So I suppose, by supporting Arab nationalism, we were indirectly supporting them in this goal too.
Posted by: Joe Bloggs

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 08/15/06 12:57 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. Haddock: [b] [QUOTE][qb]I think there is no side worth taking. There are no good guys in that part of the world; it is a hornetís nest and any involvement in it will end up being the downfall of America and the western world. Best not touched with a bargepole. [/b][/quote]I think there's maybe some sense in that. The UN needs to be involved in sorting out the latest crisis, though, but any peacekeeping force needs to be made up of troops from neutral countries, i.e. no Americans, British or Arabs. The force needs to be seen to be impartial, it's the only way it will be respected by both sides.
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: infiniteprocessprophet
I believe that the whole mess within the middle east is a man made mess. It is not unusual for mankind to use God as a basis for their actions or to justify their actions. ...


Do you think that there would be no 'Middle East Crisis' if there were no Bible?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 03:44 PM

hmm well ...

you say if hezbollah stopped bombing israel would not retaliate.

and just from that its clear to me you have no idea what the truth is.

hezbollah is not unprovoked.

israel is an agressor and a monster.

what palestinians want has NOTHING to do with religion ... what we want is HUMAN ... we want freedom .... justice ... education ... clean water ... equal treament ... that crosses all barriers ... religious or other wise.

i dont agree with all the tactics used by hexbollah and other groups ... but i understand them ...

the problems in the mid east have nothing to do with religion however relgion is used to defend explain and justify ... that is what humans do.

colonialism was a real thing and it created outright havoc in the region ... israel's aggressions are real and they arent going away ... ive never in my life met a palestinian who said jews cant live in the region ... what they do say is that they must do so side by side ... peacefully .. respectfully ... however almost every single jew ive ever met has said that palestinian cant live there ... or that they dont exist at all lolz...

religion plays a big role .. but the causes of the conflict are not religion ... the causes are ignorance, greed, selfishness, and disregard for other people
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 06:32 PM

Palestine needs to have its own country again.

The Bible says that this is the Jewish 'Promised Land'. Well, whether yes or no, Israel exists there now, but to make Israel they had to ignore the fact that there was Palestine. that was wrong. The leaders of the time who orchestrated this huge error were wrong.

All we can hope for now is a peaceful compromise.

Love the neighbour & be a good Samaritan.

See:

The Middle East summit: mission impossible?
http://www.independent.co.uk/

Bush's last chance to leave a legacy of peace
http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/article3196276.ece


Hamas slams Annapolis peace talks
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6815508

US Sec of State: Israel will have to make sacrifices in peace negotiations
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6683054

Syria to attend Middle East conference
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6805564

Bush pushes Mid East peace hopes
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6808487

Bush launches drive for Mideast peace
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6812584
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 06:45 PM

yep i agree ... peace is a nice illusion ... sadly i lost hope long ago that it will ever come ... just seems way too impossible ...
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 06:45 PM

yes, the promised land... interestingly enough the jews first entered egypt because god told them to. then the tides turned against them and they needed a new promised land. which wound up being palestine. where is their next promised land going to be?

it would be helpful if the middle east was allowed to control its own destiny, something that has been denied the middle east since at least the crusades.

during the crusades it was the end of the silk road which got the west interested. in ww1 it was the new powersource - oil - and the fact that the arabs were about to do business with the germans, which moved the uk to make its first deployment in ww1 - to take basra. its been steeply down hill since, with borders drawn up which are masterpieces of fragmentation. the borders of iran, iraq, pakistan, etc were always designed to serve the interests of the british, not the locals.

after ww2 there wasn't a country within a thousand miles of present day israel who thought the israeli state was a good idea. they were ignored by the un of course.

the last thing the west wants in the middle east is peace, because then they would actually have to trade with arab countries - as in hand over cash for goods, rather than sacking the place.

i think religion is actually irrelevant here - the present day situation was not created by millenia old creeds at each others throats, it was created by the interference and exploitation by the west.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 06:59 PM

i agree with you ... the religious and tribal conflicts did exist ... but they were tolerable and made little difference.

usa and britain came in and exploited those things. it worked.

israel declared itself a country without any concern or consent for the UN ... the UN rattified the declaration the next day ... being too scared or chicken to refute it.

zionists even wanted to settle in argentina lolz ...

and when jews did go to the promised land in palestine ... they settled in the hills and valley area which is today JORDAN ... they never made it as far as present day palestine ... they pushed the cannanites back out of the jordan valley but no further. this has been supported by alot of archaeological evidence.

of course many jews even back then did live in the cities that were north of the valley. in fact ... the daughter of jacob married an egyptian prince from the city of schechem which is in present day palestine and was ruled by egypt at the time.


henry kissenger said it best when he said ... oil is too valuable a commodity to be left in the hands of the arabs .... usa and britain wanted control of the black gold and they will stop at nothing to get it
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 07:20 PM

This is why it is vital to teach history ~ real history, not propaganda ~ in schools. Everyone needs to have an understanding of how things got to be the way they are. Yet history (my subject)is being seen as a non-subject.
Posted by: janimal

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/26/07 08:30 PM

probably the way my paranoid mind works, but this could be exactly why history is portrayed as trivial in schools - they wouldn't want too many people working this stuff out...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/27/07 02:14 AM

yess agreed

i wnet to a very good private school (not faith based) that had an awesome ciriculum( even though i still cant spell lol) and we learned history ... but a very very limited history. we learned about europe and the british empire, american history (the official story) and a small amount about asia.


but we learned nothing and i mean NOTHING about russia, canada, middle east and many other places and time periods....

and kids today seem to learn even less frown
Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 11/27/07 08:11 PM

It would, though, be difficult, if not impossible, to cover all time periods in all places.

I remember once teaching a group of teenagers about Israel & Palestine. They had seen all the 'News' about Palestinian terrorists and thought that they were 'wrong', so I took out a piece from the Sunday Times magazine, showing what some Palestinian families were having to endure. I told them how the land of the Palestinians had simply been taken off them and given to the Jews. I asked how they would have felt in their shoes. Of course, they completely changed their minds. This was in 1986.
Posted by: kateyes

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 02/28/08 03:18 PM

I though I would resurect this thread because I recently stumbles across an Arab Scholar-Kamal Salabi (he has written 2 books Conspiracy in Jerusalem and The Bible Came from Arabia). I am looking for used copies of his books--but the core of his hypothesis is: Ancient Israel isn't in the area formerly known as Palastine--but is actually in Saudi Arabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Salibi

http://baheyeldin.com/science/kamal-salibi-and-the-israel-from-yemen-theory.html

http://www.cwo.com/~thowoods/salibitxt.htm

http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engarabia.html


I am still trying to sort through it all and make some sense of it in my own mind, but what a major catastrophe it would be if indeed we got it wrong!

Posted by: PDM

Re: Problems in the Middle East - and the Bible - 03/03/08 01:05 AM

Interesting!!!