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#389691 - 11/21/09 06:35 AM Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'?
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21258
Loc: UK Midlands
Starfire made these comments on another thread.

I have given my response.

But what do you think?

Originally Posted By: starfire
I have come to realize, arguing about supernatural higher powers such as God on the internet is completly futile. It is a broken record that can not be fixed. You either believe in God or you don't. There is no reason to argue about it, debate it, mock it, or define it. It is an endless debate of "you are wrong because i'm right" end of story. You are not going to win any converts on the internet to atheism or belief in God.

Why this is debated so much boggles my mind. The only other thought why God is debated so much between atheists and believers is to keep a constant flame war stoked.

As far as i'm concerned there is nothing more to debate. Why Christains do this and that, the problem with Christ, the problem with religion, why atheists believe there is no God. It's all futile. No argument is going to change anyones belief. If God himself appeard to humanity it wouldn't change Atheists belief there is no God. If it were discovered scientifically that there couldn't possibly be a God it wouldn't Change relgions belief.

It's all a waste of time and energy to debate this.

Originally Posted By: PDM
Starfire, don't you think that you could say that it is a waste of time to discuss or debate anything?

I am not trying to convert, or to be converted, but I may change my mind about something, or become more open to ideas.

By discussing, and researching the information behind our discussions, we are learning. Don't you think that opening one's minds to the ideas of others, researching facts, and debating them is educational?

And religion is a major political factor in the world, so I don't think that we can just ignore it. Perhaps more discussion will lead to better understanding, and a more peaceful world?

I cannot understand why anyone would think that religious discussion is pointless. I am happy to discuss almost anything of interest ~ and religion is interesting.

But maybe your post deserves a thread of its own, where others can give their opinions on the subject. smile

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/389690#Post389690
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#389697 - 11/21/09 09:22 AM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: PDM]
Carl Offline
Copper Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
I agree that one will not change another's mind. But one might, through discussing (or arguing or debating), take a clearer look at the points in his/her position that had previously been kind of glossed over. As one encounters the weaknesses, or even the embarassments, of aspects that one might heretofore "excused" with a "I'll understand it later by and by," one might decide this: "You know what, this really doesn't 'feel' right to me. Maybe I should make a list (inwardly) of just what are the bedrocks of what I think I 'know' - just what are my beliefs."

I am an introspective kind of guy. No doubt I would have been thinking and doing this kind of thing anyway; however, it has been going on as I've discussed "religion" here.

What is left in my position is quite a bit different than before. Well, at least it is more pared down.
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#389700 - 11/21/09 09:31 AM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: Carl]
janimal Offline
Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 2811
Loc: bude , cornwall
there are two reasons for entering into these discussions. hammering out rights and wrongs, and understanding the other. anyone who thinks either of those is a waste of time has no concept of the harm done by misunderstanding religions, and the harm done to society when religion imposes itself upon it.

yes, i have expressed some very virulent opinions here, but it hasn't been for the sake of massaging my ego. for me it is about understanding where other people are coming from, and maybe now and then pointing out where their opinions are not helpful to society. what they come away with from these encounters is entirely up to them.
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when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure you have something to watch.

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#389702 - 11/21/09 09:48 AM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: janimal]
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21258
Loc: UK Midlands
Originally Posted By: janimal
..... it is about understanding where other people are coming from, and maybe now and then pointing out where their opinions are not helpful to society. ...

Yes, I agree.
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"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#389703 - 11/21/09 09:49 AM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: Carl]
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21258
Loc: UK Midlands
Originally Posted By: Carl
... one might ... take a clearer look at the points in his/her position that had previously been kind of glossed over....

I agree with that, too.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#389706 - 11/21/09 10:32 AM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: PDM]
BLR Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 3782
Loc: NE Oklahoma
When I cook I am always looking for ingredients that I have either not used before or not used in the suggested way. I approach most of my life that way. I love the feeling of “well, I would have never thought of that” and am always looking for it.

I look at my spiritual quest the same way. Obviously there are the old recipes that I have seen a hundred times, tried them, put them in my recipe box and moved on. But, on occasion, through discussion I have come across that wonder feeling of “I would have never thought of that.” Without discussion that would never happen.
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#389721 - 11/21/09 03:34 PM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: BLR]
Carl Offline
Copper Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
Yes, Barbara. I very much agree with that. Whether it is Bible Study, or a seminar in ethics, or a rap session, or a religious research discussion, I think we do spot new things, or at least new nuances. Sometimes, something will trigger a new insight within us.

An old admonition in some homes or cafeterias - "Take all you want, but eat all you take!" could be re-worked for our purposes here:

Take all you want, but feel free to change it or reject it entirely, because you are the one who must live with yourselves.

But since each of us also have others who benefit or are harmed by how we live with ourselves, let's hope that more of our individual "ways" will have these ingredients - tolerance and respect.
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Tiny was my first puppy.

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#389723 - 11/21/09 04:01 PM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: Carl]
mbas400 Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 3467
Loc: Texas, USA
What I find futile and frustrating is when you think you are having an intelligent discussion but people refuse to see what you think is obvious and revert to their comfort zones. This is usually followed by an "I'll pray for you" comment.

That is futile and frustrating to me.
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We all have our superstitions.
Don't Join Dangerours Cults! Practice Safe Sects

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#389729 - 11/21/09 05:36 PM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: mbas400]
Carl Offline
Copper Star Soulmate

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Gator Country, Florida - USA
Yes, it can be frustrating, mbas - especially when things are stressful and you're trying to keep a fairly even keel.

Reverting to comfort zones could be like two steps forward and one step back. Let's hope so.

And what one thinks is obvious can also be a matter of bias - or at least an object of micromanagement.

As for comments such as you mentioned, I think it depends on the context and who is talking.
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Tiny was my first puppy.

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#389730 - 11/21/09 05:59 PM Re: Religious / Supernatural Discussion 'futile'? [Re: Carl]
BLR Offline
Tin Star Soulmate

Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 3782
Loc: NE Oklahoma
Yes it can depend on the context and the who. It also can depend on the way disagreement is presented. There is a huge difference between "you don't understand" and "I am not making my point understandable."
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Barbara

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