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#212537 - 09/04/07 08:35 PM Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ??
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Leonardo’s painting called “The Last Supper” has generated much interest. The book, The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown, relies upon a certain interpretation of Leonardo's painting. To be sure, the storyline was creative genius to be sure a the movie based upon the book was well done, but a fundamental flaw renders the entire concept as put forth by Mr. Brown invalid.

First the premise…drawn from the painting...that Leonardo deliberately omitted painting a "goblet/cup/chalice/etc" from which Jesus and the assembled disciples shared wine. This absent vessel, it is argued by Dan Brown and now legions of “believers” was intended by Leonardo to provide future validation of the premise that the so-called "Holy Grail" is not a vessel but the descendant(s) of Jesus and Mary M.

With an imaginative eye perhaps even Leonardo himself did not have, many now see in the space between Jesus and the figure on his right a "V", deliberately painted in such a way to represent the female womb. If Leonardo intended to obscure such a “meaning” from religions eyes of his day…a meaning he hoped would be clearly understood by those of an enlightened and liberated future, one can only imagine the hint of a smile as he painted knowing how angry those commissioning the work would be at the suggestion of a symbolic womb appearing in the middle of “their” painting.

Leonardo painted this work almost fifteen hundred years after the event so what was his source of "information" about the subject of his painting? After all, he was not there and knew no one that was?

He couldn't have consulted the NT. That collection of writings clearly state (at for example Luke 22:16-17) that (a) there was a "cup" and (b) out of that single container a drink of the wine therein was shared by all those assembled (except Judas I. who had departed).

Secondly, the picture portrays a "glass" with a liquid (presumably wine) near each of those seated at the table. While such vessels holding water or wine may have graced tables in Leonardo's time, they certainly did not in the time of Jesus.

Evidence of “hollow” glassware (vases) date from the sixteenth century B.C.E., but "glass" anything because of rarity, the absense of artisians that knew how to make it, and the resulting cost made it more likely to appear on the table of a Pharaoh not that of a carpenter, tax collector, or fisherman. Neither does the depiction of multiple “glasses” reflect the NT description of the event.

This begs the question, didn't Leonardo read his NT before commencing to paint? But then again, perhaps he couldn't properly research the matter since the Church wasn't too keen in his day on Bibles sitting around for just anyone to read.

Finally, amidst all the speculation and explanations, the appeal to scientific discovery, the X-Rays, electron Microscopes, spectrometers, etc., etc., where are the questions or observations asking why Jesus and his disciples were convened for an evening meal.

Why not? Why were they there? ?? What was so special that Jesus had planned for a long time to gather with his disciples on that night for that meal ??? Does any of that matter in relation to the issue of Leonardo's painting and the intense debate over "The Da Vinci Code" ??

It matters.

The meal was to commemorate Passover !!

Why is that significant?

The Passover of Moses had two things in common with the Passover of Jesus and the last meal with his disciples (1) the "bread-of-haste" (unleavened bread) and (2) wine. That night was to commemorate the flight of the Israelites from Egypt, not to set the stage for the going forth of Jesus' seed carried by a pregnant Mary M. as the premise of Mr. Brown and those embracing this story now contend.

Given the criterion of Passover as to “why” Jesus and his disciples were gathered together to share the event, Passover with its emblems of unleavened bread and wine, its historical and religious significance, all of which Jesus and his disciples were there to observe (a matter of no small significance which both Leonardo and Mr. Brown seem to have overlooked), the single cup described by the writers of the NT (who unlike Leonardo were actually there) all of those descriptive elements leave only one conclusion possible as to what Leonardo was and was not intending to paint.

No matter how hard anyone stretches, pulls and strains to make a case for believing that Leonardo's painting (with or without its "secrets") reveals and validates a fanciful legend that descendants of Jesus are the real "Holy Grail" have simply been carried away by an imaginative tale created by someone other than the painter himself.


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:27 PM)
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#212645 - 09/05/07 04:13 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Some food for thought for You. Davinci’s Mind - A Lens Da Vinci was undoubtedly one of the brightest and most diversified intellects to have ever lived… but we are only now beginning to understand the true depth and breadth of that genius…. and it is even more astounding than previously thought! His mind and the ability to project his vision and perception into layers and three dimensions from a variety of perspectives have previously only been seen as a result…. As in the Mona Lisa when her eyes follow you around the room wherever you go…. We are now able to prove that he had the unique ability to visualize in layers and three dimensions and to focus his and the viewer’s attention on one layer while he created and combined layers to produce, until now, unseen secondary images. It was his ability to see things from outside himself and place those images, both of himself and of other subjects within artworks surreptitiously that is coming to light. It is proving that da Vinci was able to use his mind much as a lens focusing on different depths of field, and then create multiple images, some visible others hidden, using his own very clever optical illusions that in modern terminology might be considered holographic in nature. New findings have revealed other capabilities that we will discuss in the near future. http://www.lionardofromvinci.com/About.html http://www.lionardofromvinci.com/Leonardo.html http://www.lionardofromvinci.com/Summary.html http://www.lionardofromvinci.com/index.html http://www.lionardofromvinci.com/Contact.html

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#212671 - 09/05/07 05:32 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Hi Grrr82CU ~ welcome to the forum smile

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
... First the premise ... that Leonardo deliberately omitted painting a "goblet/cup/chalice/etc" .... This absent vessel, it is argued by Dan Brown ... was intended by Leonardo to provide future validation of the premise that the so-called "Holy Grail" is not a vessel but the descendant(s) of Jesus and Mary M.

Well, it is a theory ~ and I think that he is not the only person to put it forward. However, there is also here a supposition that the 'holy grail' actually attended The Last Supper.

Quote:
With an imaginative eye perhaps even Leonardo himself did not have, many now see in the space between Jesus and the figure on his right a "V", deliberately painted in such a way to represent the female womb. ...

Renaissance paintings were often full of symbolism and this 'V' shape is rather obvious and encourages viewers tp wonfder about its meaning.

Quote:
Leonardo painted this work almost fifteen hundred years after the event so what was his source of "information" about the subject of his painting? After all, he was not there and knew no one that was?

Of course Leonardo wasn't there, but his paintings do tend to make us think and question ~ and, in those days, documents from the East were turning up in the West and making people wonder about early Christianity.

Did he know or suspect something secret about Jesus?
I don't know.

Quote:
...the picture portrays a "glass" with a liquid .. near each of those seated at the table. While such vessels holding water or wine may have graced tables in Leonardo's time, they certainly did not in the time of Jesus.

I would like to hope that anyone seriously studying the painting would realise that it owes a lot to Leonardo's own life and times. It supposedly reflects the holy land of Jesus's time, but actually reflects Renaiassance 'Italy'.

Quote:
Evidence of “hollow” glassware (vases) date from the sixteenth century B.C.E., ...

I found some pictures of apparently Roman glasses:

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/medieval/food/pictures/glasses.jpg
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/food/wine.htm
....

Quote:
... Why were they there? ?? What was so special that Jesus had planned for a long time to gather with his disciples on that night for that meal ??? Does any of that matter in relation to the issue of Leonardo's painting and the intense debate over "The Da Vinci Code" ??
It matters.
The meal was to commemorate Passover !!
Why is that significant?

The Passover of Moses had two things in common with the Passover of Jesus and the last meal with his disciples (1) the "bread-of-haste" (unleavened bread) and (2) wine. That night was to commemorate the flight of the Israelites from Egypt, not to set the stage for the going forth of Jesus' seed carried by a pregnant Mary M. as the premise of Mr. Brown and those embracing this story now contend.

Given the criterion of Passover as to “why” Jesus and his disciples were gathered together to share the event, Passover with its emblems of unleavened bread and wine, its historical and religious significance, all of which Jesus and his disciples were there to observe (a matter of no small significance which both Leonardo and Mr. Brown seem to have overlooked), the single cup described by the writers of the NT (who unlike Leonardo were actually there) all of those descriptive elements leave only one conclusion possible as to what Leonardo was and was not intending to paint.

...

I don't understand.
Why do you say that 'Leonardo and Mr. Brown' overlooked the fact that this meal was part of Passover?


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:27 PM)
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#212893 - 09/06/07 04:57 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
To nango and PDM

Thank both of you for the thoughtful responses.

Please allow a few days (given my schedule) to peruse your comments, information & links. I will hope to be able to answer soon thereafter.

and...Grrr82CU smile
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#212952 - 09/07/07 12:34 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
The Grail I believe is a Bowl, Not a Goblet or Chalice

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#212974 - 09/07/07 02:44 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: nanago
The Grail I believe is a Bowl, Not a Goblet or Chalice


What caused you to draw that conclusion?
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#213302 - 09/09/07 05:43 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
A Goblet or Chalice was looked at also as a bowl.

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#213306 - 09/09/07 07:10 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
But why do you think that the 'grail' is a goblet or chalice or bowl?
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#213617 - 09/10/07 04:45 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Homework

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#213680 - 09/10/07 07:25 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Just a quick check in...reading all the entries, working slowly (at best) on responses to your initial posts re: "A Fatal Flaw".

I'm looking forward to being able to re-enter the dialogue. Family matters are unexpectedly consuming massive amounts of time (sole caregiver for a disabled spouse).

Back with you as soon as possible. Have interesting research to share that applies to Leonardo's portrayal of glassware appearing on the "Last Supper" table.
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