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#213692 - 09/10/07 07:43 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
interesting,looking forward to research to share.

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#214012 - 09/12/07 11:55 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Re: Some food for thought for You I looked up the links you provided and considered the claims attending each subject matter. With all due respect, and in reference to your response and the material linked, nothing was applicable to the content of the post “Leonardo’s Painting – A Fatal Flaw?”. There was never any issue with Leonardo being one of the great luminaries of all ages with respect to the breadth of his imagination or skills as an artisan. We are all in awe of his probing mind, scribbling out notes and sketches of inventions which were later to take a form so resembling his own concepts that they cause us to view him as a man not only “before his time” – but as a man who awoke in the dark of night but went forth to begin his day before others began theirs. Neither was the post challenging his prowess as an artist, expressing his genius in many mediums. What the post, “Leonardo’s Painting, A Fatal Flaw” was about, is whether or not he was a sort of “Renaissance Nostradamus”. Was he a man who over a century after the fact was possessed with insight into the greatest mystery of all religions, who or what was the “Holy Grail” and painted in that hidden knowledge in his rendering of Christ’s last meal with his disciples? Was Leonardo a revealer of hidden truths, painting in multiple dimensions, utilizing planes of transparencies and filtered light flowing from his brushes dipped in experimental paint in techniques so advanced the secrets they masked would remain undiscovered until modern times? Did these “tricks of light and pigments” reside in fading works which (like “The Last Supper”) retain little of his own hand which was at work in their creation until discovery centuries later? For all his genius and prodigious talent, Leonardo Da Vinci was not telling us in “The Last Supper” that Mary Magdalene was to Jesus’ right or did he intentionally paint in the space between the two forms the symbol of the “sacred feminine”, a “V”, the opposite of the “Blade”. More to come…


Edited by Grrr82CU (09/12/07 11:56 AM)
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#214078 - 09/12/07 05:47 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Thank you for the welcome PDM, So as not to burden the board with repetitive quotes, unless a different arrangement is preferred please simply review your own quotations from “Leonardo’s Painting – A Fatal Flaw” for context in relation to the following replies. Re: The missing “cup”, “chalice”, “goblet”(or "bowl" as Nanango prefers) Hopefully the original post at least established an arguable premise that Leonardo made no attempt to be accurate against the benchmark of the descriptions of Jesus’ last meal with his disciples contained in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John because (a) attention to accuracy wasn’t important to him [in relation to the NT account] (b) he thought it only necessary to rely upon his own memory or (c) he didn’t have access to new testament material (a possibility because of the Church’s resistance to bibles being made available in the common language of the people). If that can be more-or-less agreed upon by all of us for the sake of discussion, then follows one of the major objections regarding the frenzied embrace of Dan Brown’s great weave of fiction with history. That objection is the tale’s relationship and dependence upon Leonardo’s “The Last Supper” to validate the belief that Mary Magdalene was not only at the table but the space between her and Jesus is deliberately painted to form the symbol for a womb, the “opposite” of the male (the “Blade”), thus the “Holy Grail”. It is argued, therefore, that Leonardo represented the "V" to say to those "in on the secret" that it representes not just any woman but Mary Magdalene herself. But before a rush to belief in this scenario… (1) Leonardo’s painting is fraught with historical inaccuracies when measured against the New Testament accounts of Jesus’ last meal with his disciples (more on this later on) (2)The painting itself has been tampered with (the insertion of a doorway over Leonardo’s portrayal of Jesus’ and other’s feet). How many more “tamperings” have occurred that we do not know about with any certainty? (3) Even in Leonardo’s time, the experimental paint and application in a non-fresco technique began to degrade so quickly that the great master himself had to repair it often. Was it always simply repaired with no changes reflecting a new theory/idea by the Master? Do we not in every day life demand greater tests of veracity for anything we are considering believing than is being asked by many of Mr. Brown's hypothesis? Why are so many lowering the criterion regarding this novelistic hypothesis based upon a painting that is less than historically accurate in relation to the N.T? Teabing in Dan Brown’s novel argues the figure to the right of Jesus has feminine features and futher announces that he sees “the hint of a bosom”. This he postulates is proof enough that the figure is none other than Mary Magdalene, Jesus' pregnant wife. This sets up a no-compromise conflict. Either the figure is that of Mary Magdalene or it is that of The Apostle John. If the figure to Jesus’ right is Mary Magdalene, then the Apostle John is missing from the table. Who with a shred of attention paid to the context of the reason for the last evening meal can argue that John is not (or would not be) among the twelve disciples? Can we imagine that Leonardo would paint in Jesus’ betrayer, Judas Iscariot, at the table but the leave out the disciple described as “the one Jesus loved”, the one who leaned back against his master to ask the betrayer's identy? (Jn 13:23,24). As to the “femininity” of the person to Jesus’ right, Leonardo was a product of the Florentine School which is known for promoting the imaging of young boys and young men with effeminate features. Witness examples by Piero della Francesca’s “St. Julian” (1455-1460); Raphael’s “St Sebastian” (1502-1503) just to name two. Now pull up Leonardo’s “Angel In The Flesh”. (Cautionary note: it’s a bit sexually explicit). It is a perfect example of Leonardo’s frequent use of “gender-blending” just as seen in the work of others painting under the influence of The Florentine School. Before you leave viewing “The Angel In The Flesh”, note, please the presence of a “bosom”. If Teabing was the Grail Scholar he is set forth to be by Dan Brown, or if in fact Mr. Brown was properly informed regarding this, he would have known this about Leonardo’s predilection to portray young men and boys in an effeminate way and should not have presented the “hint of a bosom” by Teabing as an endorsement of the person to Jesus’ right being Mary Magdalene. More to come as time allows…
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#214183 - 09/13/07 01:47 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Only from my perspective I feel Lionardo encrypted many of his works with meaning, when put all together spell out what he was trying to say, like a book,
Lionardo was to much of a Genius to lay anything down in one area but in multiple areas to protect what he was doing and to protect the Secret of what was past on to him.

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#214217 - 09/13/07 05:01 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU0
Leonardo painted this work almost fifteen hundred years after the event so what was his source of "information" about the subject of his painting? After all, he was not there and knew no one that was?

(Source of information?)
True, He Lionardo was not there but perhaps, just perhaps, Lionardo was intrusted with some information that was passed down to him through some very powerful people at the time!
Perhaps one should get involved within the time line and people surrounding him.

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU0
Evidence of “hollow” glassware (vases) date from the sixteenth century B.C.E.

Do we make a mistake of thinking it was even glassware??

Finally food for Thought!
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
There are many who would, with reason, blame me by pointing out that my proofs are contrary to established authority, which is, after all, held in great reverence by their inexperienced minds. They do not realize that my works arise from unadulterated and simple experience, which is the one true mistress, the one true muse. The rules of experience are all that is needed to discern the true from the false; experience is what helps all men to look temperately for the possible, rather than cloaking oneself in ignorance, which can result in no good thing, so that, in the end, one abandons oneself to despair and melancholy.

~Leonardo da Vinci
Translated from the Italian by Richard Hooker
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REN/PAINTER.HTM

A second and final thought of illusion and purpose.
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
On the three branches of perspective.

There are three branches of perspective: first, the diminution of objects as they recede from the eye, known as Diminishing Perspective. Second, the way in which colors vary as they recede from the eye. Third, the explanation of how the objects in a picture ought to be less perfect and complete in proportion to their remoteness. The names are as follows: Linear Perspective, The Perspective of Color, The Perspective of Disappearance

On the mistake of those who practice without knowledge.
Those who are fond of practice without knowledge are like a sailor in a ship without a rudder or a compass who, as a result, has no certain idea where he's going. Practice must always be built from sound theoretical knowledge. The gateway to this theoretical knowledge is Perspective; without Perspective nothing can be done well or properly in the matter of painting and drawing. The painter who only relies on practice and the eye, without any intellect, is no more than a mirror which copies slavishly everything placed in front of it and which has no consciousness of the existence of these things.
Here, right here, in the eye, here forms, here colors, right here the character of every part and every thing of the universe, are concentrated to a single point. How marvelous that point is! . . . In this small space, the universe can be completely reproduced and rearranged in its entire vastness!

~Leonardo da Vinci
Translated from the Italian by Richard Hooker
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REN/PAINTER.HTM






Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:27 PM)

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#214218 - 09/13/07 05:06 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
I agree that males and females could be mistaken for one another in Renaissance art, including that of Leonardo.

What I find interesting is the way that John and Mary Magdalene are painted to look so similar in various works.

A good example is Pietro Perugino's 'The Crucifixion with the Virgin, St John, St Jerome and St Mary Magdalene':
http://www.abcgallery.com/P/perugino/perugino20.html

See:
'Did Perugino (1445-1523) leave us a clue about the identity of
Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple?'

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/perugino.htm

There is doubt about who, exactly, is being referred to as 'the beloved disciple' ~ it may not be John.
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#214223 - 09/13/07 05:54 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Nanago: (Grrr82CU: "(Leonardo painted this work almost fifteen hundred years after the event so what was his source of "information" about the subject of his painting? After all, he was not there and knew no one that was?)"

Nanango: "Lionardo was not there but perhaps, just perhaps, Lionardo was intrusted with some information that was passed down to him through some very powerful people at the time!"

...and perhaps not. To presume Leonardo was passed great information by the powerful of his day (most of whom he did not get along with that well) presumes much.

Nanago: "Perhaps one should get involved within the time line and people surrounding him"

That is the information being brought forth, especially relating to the school of painting to which he owes his basic training.

"(Grrr82CU: "Evidence of “hollow” glassware (vases) date from the sixteenth century B.C.E.,)"

Nanango: "Do we make a mistake of thinking it was even glassware??"

That was not the point being addressed.

Leonardo shows clear glassware on the table. As stated, "hollow" glassware had been around for centuries at the time of Jesus - but - it was not clear. That did not become possible until 100 C.E. so even if the apostles did drink from glasses (which is very doubtful) Leonardo's portrayal of them as "clear" is another example that his painting is less than accurate historically in relation to Jesus' time.

The matter of tableware, glassware, etc., is the subject referred to as "more to come". Haven't had time to bring everything together.

Sorry there isn't time for more tonight (or until next week probably)

Oh...and the method of quoting...sorry...haven't got the hang of using the icons to transfer quotions in those nice little frames as does PDM smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:27 PM)
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#214233 - 09/13/07 07:04 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
When I was young my father taught me two make 'two' snow balls not one when throwing them at anyone in a game , I asked him 'Why', he told me that while everyone was watching the first snow ball thrown in the air straight up you could throw the other one
at them that they never would expect it. It is my thought that Lionardo did the same thing in his painting, by this I mean he always gave you something up in the air to think about, while he did what he wanted to do right in front of you.

Words to think about.

The snow ball effect. The first of two snow balls, the first being thrown up above the eyes and head!

The gateway to this theoretical knowledge is Perspective; without Perspective nothing can be done well or properly in the matter of painting and drawing. The painter who only relies on practice and the eye, without any intellect, is no more than a mirror which copies slavishly everything placed in front of it and which has no consciousness of the existence of these things.

Here, right here, in the eye, here forms, here colors, right here the character of every part and every thing of the universe, are concentrated to a single point. How marvelous that point is! In this small space, the universe can be completely reproduced and rearranged in its entire vastness!


The second of two snow balls thrown.

If the eye is forced to look at an object far too close to it, that eye cannot really form a judgment of that object, for instance, when a man tries to look at his nose. As a general rule, then, Nature teaches us that no object can be seen perfectly unless it is placed at least at a distance from the eye equal to the length of the face.

My point is, Lionardo did it right in front of all of us, but we did not pick it up! (I will explain more Later!)





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#214280 - 09/14/07 02:25 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
...Oh...and the method of quoting...sorry...haven't got the hang of using the icons to transfer quotions in those nice little frames as does PDM smile

Hi!
This is for everyone concerned, as well as Grrr82CU:

When you reply to a post, you click on reply ~ that way the correct response goes with the correct original comment.

Often, to show the relevance of a comment, a quote is required, then, instead of clicking on 'reply', you click on quote ~ and you can just delete the bits you don't require ~ replacing them with dots ... if and where necessary.

If you want to just do it yourself, do this:
To open a quote:
[q uote]
To open a quote with the name of the person quoted included:
[q uote=XXX]
To close a quote:
[/q uote]

I have incorrectly left gaps between the 'q' and the 'u' only so that this explanation doesn't come up as a quote.

All quotes posted must obvious as quotes and the person being quoted should be easily identifiable.

Quotes from books, etc, should also be clearly marked and the author must be identifiable

Long quotes should be avoided because copyright infringement might be an issue.

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#214281 - 09/14/07 03:39 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Grrr82CU

I have been re-reading your posts and am trying to see the 'fundamental flaw' that 'renders the entire concept as put forth by Mr. Brown invalid'.

I believe that there are actually many flaws in Dan Brown's book ~ and we have discussed many, many errors on this forum.

As far as Leonardo's 'Last Supper' is concerned, I think that he used the Bible story, but painted it in a 'Renaissance Italian' manner. The models were from his place and time. I understand that Jesus would probably have had short hair, for example, yet he has the style of Leonardo's place and time. The picture tells of a specific moment, so he must have had access to that story ~ if only via his patrons.

The drinking vessels, too, must have been an interpretation from Leonardo's own experience. Nothing more; nothing less, I would guess.

How does that fit with Mary M being the Holy Grail?
I can't see a problem really.
If she carried the Holy blood, and the Holy grail was believed to be the vessel that carried this holy bloodline, then she was that grail. There is no reason for us to believe that a drinking vessel from the table had to be involved.

I think that most people accept that 'The Last Supper' was considered to have been a meal connected to Passover.
Why is that a problem?
Wouldn't women have attended such a meal?

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
'Either the figure is that of Mary Magdalene or it is that of The Apostle John. If the figure to Jesus’ right is Mary Magdalene, then the Apostle John is missing from the table.

Who with a shred of attention paid to the context of the reason for the last evening meal can argue that John is not (or would not be) among the twelve disciples? Can we imagine that Leonardo would paint in Jesus’ betrayer, Judas Iscariot, at the table but the leave out the disciple described as “the one Jesus loved”, the one who leaned back against his master to ask the betrayer's identy?'

The identity of 'the beloved disciple' is something of a mystery. Certainly you would expect the 'beloved' one to be with Jesus at his final Passover meal, but why not his mother and sisters and Mary Magdalen?
If we can't miss out one, why miss out the others?

I have already mentioned the 'strange' practice, by Renaissance artists, of painting John and the Magdalene as if they were twins.
Why would they do this?
Doesn't it imply that the one may have been mistaken for the other?
Why, in Renaissance 'Italy', was this idea around?

'Did Perugino (1445-1523) leave us a clue about the identity of
Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple?'

http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/perugino.htm

Did Leonardo hear the story of Mary Magdalene and Jesus kissing, perhaps?
I understand that 'heretical' stories from the East were reaching Florence and thereabouts around this time.

Did he decide to make an implication, or ask a question with his painting?
Or is there no symbolism?
Is the 'V' shape just an artistic technique?
Why on that side but not the other?
Is there any hidden message?
Can we know?

Quote:
'the idea that Da Vinci used any kind of code pertaining to any issue Dan Brown raises is unsupported by art historians.

Brown says that in this painting Da Vinci is telling us that the figure always identified as John the Evangelist is really Mary Magdalene, and that these two figures together form an "M," and that, because there is no grail in the picture, Da Vinci is telling us the "grail" is the sacred feminine of Mary Magdalene.

Unfortunately for Brown, art historians tell us that the effeminate-looking John is quite a typical representation for the time, as is a Last Supper portrayal emphasizing betrayal rather than the institution of the Eucharist. In addition, the Last Supper is a dramatization of a scene from the Gospel of John, in which the institution narrative is not even described. No chalice? No problem. In context, it makes sense.'

From: The Da Vinci Code the facts behind the fiction
http://www.thetruthdecoded.org.au/The-Da-Vinci-Code-the-facts-behind-the-fiction.php


To me, the painting contains many questions ~ why the gesture (sometimes known as 'the John the Baptist gesture') in the face of Jesus? ~ Almost filling the space that would have been the balancing 'V' shape?

I appreciate that Leonardo's boys looked effeminate ~ sometimes overly so, but why does 'the beloved disciple' look so much like 'Mary' in the 'Virgin of the Rocks' paintings?
And like Leda, too?!

Didn't this bother the people of the time ~ especially the Church???

And speaking of these paintings, why does he make John the Baptist and Jesus look so alike?

http://web.educastur.princast.es/proyect...ENTO/lvinci.htm

And look like Leda's twins?
http://www.oel-bild.de/Leda~2934.htm
http://www.oel-bild.de/Leda~2935.htm
http://www.oel-bild.de/Leda~2936.htm

Was it purely to do with the model(s) available?

So, I don't trust Brown's conclusions, but I do find Leonardo's paintings intriguing, and they do make me ask questions and wonder if he had heard heretical stories, or if he had some heretical ideas of his own?


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:28 PM)
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