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#214283 - 09/14/07 04:06 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Some background & other info: Did Leonardo da Vinci Believe that Mary Magdalene was the Beloved Disciple? http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/leonardo.html Did Perugino (1445-1523) leave us a clue about the identity of Mary Magdalene as the Beloved Disciple? http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/perugino.htm Mary Magdalene: Author of the Fourth Gospel? by Ramon K. Jusino, M.A. © 1998 http://ramon_k_jusino.tripod.com/magdalene.html Lisa's pages: ~ The Last Suppera No Chalice and the Missing Cup (Plus links to other relevant info) http://www.lisashea.com/hobbies/art/nochalice.html Some early copies of the Last supper give us an idea of what it might once have looked like: Version at the museum, Tongerlo http://www.tongerlo.org/da_vinci/avondmaal.htm Giovan Pietro Rizzoli, called Giampietrino c1515 http://www.racollection.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?submit-button=SUMMARY&$03/1230%20index%20mus_obj_parts=.&_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSPFX_=full/t


Edited by PDM (09/14/07 04:06 AM)
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#214299 - 09/14/07 06:46 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Thanks for the formatting information PDM. HTML is familiar but not UBBCode at this point.

A quick in & out like this is only to copy the responses and tranfer them to MS Word for study later. As indicated, time is very limited, and concern is building that not enough of it to do justice to the responses is going to be available. Will try however...

As to the "flaw" you have been re-reading to determine what was being referred to, the underlying thought behind the word choice was a "cumulative" flaw in Leonardo's portrayal of Jesus' "Last Supper" rather than a specific "one" flaw.

"Cumulative" is intended to mean (in the sense of) relating to the sum of (a) the painting's lack of historical accuracy in relation to N.T. accounts and (b) misrepresentation of the event in relation to Passover.

What has been attempted thus far, is to present material for consideration relating to collateral items in the painting per (a) above. Thus, in example, the contribution of Leonardo's school of painting to the portrayal of the person to Jesus' immediate right, the "tableware" (more to come on that), and other related issues of interest. What has not been entered at this point, is material for consideration related to (b) above, the issue of Passover and how Leonardo's painting does not reflect an accurate portrayal of that celebration.

For the record, this writer is an admirer of Leonardo and always has been, also not a Catholic so there is no agenda from that perspective to defend regarding Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

Enjoying the spirited exchanges and high level of discussion.

Have a good weekend all...

More when possible and ....Grrr92CU smile
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#214985 - 09/16/07 08:41 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
For anyone interested in the timline of such matter, one should look in www.jstor.com, I think you will find that this is one of the best places in the world for research.

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#215015 - 09/17/07 09:01 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
First, there is appreciation for the patience of those exchanging dialogue and viewpoints regarding this writer’s time constraints which are severely limiting timely responses.

Also, please be assured that it is only a reflection of available time to compose that responses may at times seem clipped. They are not meant to be. At other times a reply may seem to not address (or only skip lightly over) each and every point brought forth by another writer. In such instances, it is all about limited time to compose, noting more. Neither is focus on one writer’s comments more than another ‘personal’ in any way but only to address something that is salient to a current or on-going point of discussion.

So quickly to a few thoughts:

Originally Posted By: PDM, 12/16/04
Renaissance paintings were often full of symbolism and this 'V' shape is rather obvious and encourages viewers to wonder about its meaning


Perhaps "interest", but as conclusory evidence assumed by many that it symbolically represents a woman's womb, the "Holy Grail"? Such "insight" into what is not there is more a case of Scotoma (in reverse compared to its usage by Professor Langford in Dan Brown’s novel). Rather than see what Leonardo intended as simply a space incidental to the painting (much less his intent to provide support for a hypothesis developed much later), someone “sees” what he/she wants to see as fitting the now popular notion that it symbolizes "who" or "what" the grail is.

Originally Posted By: PDM, 12/16/04
Is the 'V' shape just an artistic technique? Why on that side but not the other?


Applying that criterion, a “V” is quite obvious between the left shoulder of Philip and right shoulder of Matthew (in the blue garment). The one appearing between Philip and Matthew is not as dramatic as the one appearing between Jesus and John (a comparison which will no doubt be pounced upon by those wishing to be persuaded the one between Jesus and John has a hidden meaning) but never-the-less a clearly visible “V” between Philip and Matthew.

You asked “Why not [a “V” on] the other [side]?”

This writer asks, Quid Pro Quo, “Why not recognize the "V" between Philip and Matthew? Why not argue by the same standard and logic being applied to the “V” between Jesus and the person to his right also to the "V" between Philip and Matthew as representing (or also representing) the “Sacred Feminine”, the “Holy Grail”?

Again, Quid Pro Quo, “One Standard” applied to all the “Vs” in the picture. That would assure no double-standard creeps in that is convenient to only one interpretation would it not?

Originally Posted By: PDM, 12/16/04
…you would expect the 'beloved' one to be with Jesus at his final Passover meal, but why not his mother and sisters and Mary Magdalene? If we can't miss out one, why miss out the others?


There is a difference between Jesus’ disciples, of which there were many but not all were Apostles. On the other hand, Jesus’ Apostles, of which there were only twelve, were each also a disciple. It was Jesus’ apostles/disciples that were present at “The Last Supper”, not disciples who were not also Apostles. That is why Jesus’ mother and Mary Magdalene were not at the table. Neither were Apostles (Mt 10:2-4)

Originally Posted By: PDM, 12/16/04
The identity of 'the beloved disciple' is something of a mystery


Nothing personal, but it seems a bit ironic that the identity of the one “Jesus loved” can be described as “somewhat of a mystery” in the face of such assurances from so many that the figure to Jesus’ right in Leonardo’s painting is clear to them as being Mary Magdalene.

Remembering the difference between a disciple and an Apostle/disciple, only John, the youngest of the Apostles and the last to die would have been at the table, not Mary Magdalene. It has already been established Leonardo portrayed young men with effeminate features so the figure to Jesus’ immediate right, John, would be so painted pursuant to the tradition of the Florentine School.

Finally, to the claim that the writer of the Fourth Gospel does not identify the disciple in question so (a) it could be Mary Magdalene and/or (b) Mary Magdalene is the author of the Fourth Gospel...

None of the four Gospel accounts self-identify as do the writers of Ezekiel, Hosea, and many other Hebrew Testament authors. To the list of those biblical writers that do identify themselves as the authors can be added the name of the youngest and last to die Apostle when composing The Revelation as noted in Chapter 1, verse 1 (and yes, this writer is aware of those who as on every matter are called upon to argue that it was someone else that wrote The Revelation).

Last but not least, is the N.T. record which rules out one of two possible identities of the disciple "whom Jesus loved" that is in question:

Originally Posted By: John 20:1, 2, New RSV
Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved and said to them...


The description speaks for itself. Mary Magdalene is clearly identified as being a separate person from the “disciple whom Jesus loved”.

In the face of this construction, it is impossible to maintain the argument that she is the writer of the Fourth Gospel who does not identify herself as the disciple "whom Jesus loved" but later names herself as approaching Peter and herself!

Remember the dispute at that last meal as who was the greatest? It is much more defensible that the writer of the Fourth Gospel refers to himself in the third party in modesty opposed to saying “I, John, am the disciple that leaned back upon my Master’s breast, I the one whom he loved, I the one who along with Peter Mary Magdalene ran to tell our Master’s tomb had been opened”.

Surely Jesus loved all his disciples and disciple/apostles, but there was apparently something special about John which is why he was singled out as the one “whom Jesus loved”. Perhaps it was his youth, perhaps because he would be the last to carry on the message. We cannot know.

Only time for one more topic, the glassware Leonardo painted.

Originally Posted By: PDM
I would like to hope that anyone seriously studying the painting would realize that it owes a lot to Leonardo's own life and times. It supposedly reflects the holy land of Jesus’ time, but actually reflects Renaissance 'Italy'


This is exactly why the painting has been exploited in developing this and that fanciful speculation. Had Leonardo painted accurately according to Jesus’ time, clear glasses would not have been represented, neither would he have omitted a single vessel from which all the disciple/apostles shared a drink of wine as described in the N.T. Regardless of whether or not there were individual drinking cups for all present (again they wouldn’t likely have been glass, much less clear), the fact remains that one and one vessel alone is represented as being passed among those present (except Judas who had departed). That item is no where to be found in Leonardo’s portrayal so once again, opportunity is provided by Leonardo's omissions to give rise to the claim that a visual “V” between Jesus and the figure to his right represents that vessel (The Holy Grail).

Painting in the style of the Renaissance – should not be used to excuse lack of accuracy on the part of Leonardo in portraying a subject that had the benefit of multiple descriptions of the event provided by the N.T.

As to Leonardo’s portrayal of the “clear” table glasses, it was not until 100 C.E. (A.D) with the discovery in Alexandria that adding manganese oxide to the glass making process would produce “clear” glass. Even in the Renaissance, it was not until about 1688 C.E. (A.D.) that a method of pouring glass was developed thus making it more prevalent.

Originally Posted By: PDM
The Romans invented glassware


You might want to check your information. While the Romans did contribute to the slow spread of glass in its various forms (typical of the time) through conquest and trade, they absolutely did not invent glass or glassware.

As previously noted, glass and experimentation with it dates to early Egyptian and Mesopotamia. Almost a thousand years after those early evidences, a “How To” produce glass was discovered in 650 B.C.E (B.C.) on tablets from the reign of the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal. So with all due respect, the Roman's didn't "invent" glass. During the time of Jesus, Rome was still importing most of its glass items from Syria, Phoenicia, and other conquered nations that had already developed the art of glass production. Jesus and his disciple/Apostles were most likely to have used drinking vessels made from wood or clay, not glass.

Pursuant to the topic title, “Leonardo’s Painting – A Fatal Flaw”, the error of clear and multiple glassware joins the growing catalogue of errors (a few more of which were hopefully addressed in this post), contributing to the cumulative total of why it does not merit the authority being accorded to it. Appealing to Leonardo’s Last Supper claiming it shows the “Holy Grail” in a ”V”-shaped space, or that Mary Magdalene is the identity of the figure to Jesus’ right because it appears effeminate, etc., is based upon a flawed source.

More to come, next about the painting in relation to the observation of Passover.

…and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:28 PM)
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#215230 - 09/18/07 05:24 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Hi smile

Quote:
PDM: “Renaissance paintings were often full of symbolism and this 'V' shape is rather obvious and encourages viewers to wonder about its meaning “

Grrr82CU: “Perhaps "interest", but as conclusory evidence assumed by many that it symbolically represents a woman's womb, the "Holy Grail"?”

Absolutely ~ we can only guess and discuss and debate.
Dan Brown's book was a novel ~ he seemed to believe it all, but it was published as a work of fiction.
If it got people thinking and questioning~ all to the good, in my opinion.

Renaissance paintings ~ and others ~ can be a bit mysterious. As I said, it's strange that Perugino, who I think was a friend of Leonardo, should paint Mary & John as if they were identical twins!
Doesn't that make you wonder if these men might have had an inkling that the Magdalene might have been the 'beloved disciple'?


Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
... Rather than see what Leonardo intended as simply a space incidental to the painting (much less his intent to provide support for a hypothesis developed much later), someone “sees” what he/she wants to see as fitting the now popular notion that it symbolizes "who" or "what" the grail is.

OK, but what if Leonardo did mean something by that space?
By ignoring its possible symbolic value, aren't you also interpreting it according to what you see or want to see?

Quote:
PDM, 12/16/04: “Is the 'V' shape just an artistic technique? Why on that side but not the other?”

Grrr82CU: “Applying that criterion, a “V” is quite obvious between the left shoulder of Philip and right shoulder of Matthew (in the blue garment). The one appearing between Philip and Matthew is not as dramatic as the one appearing between Jesus and John (a comparison which will no doubt be pounced upon by those wishing to be persuaded the one between Jesus and John has a hidden meaning) but never-the-less a clearly visible “V” between Philip and Matthew. ....”

Fair enough, but one could then ask ~ why not so dramatic on that side?
There will always be questions and we cannot always be sure that we have found the correct answers, surely?

Quote:
PDM, 12/16/04: “…you would expect the 'beloved' one to be with Jesus at his final Passover meal, but why not his mother and sisters and Mary Magdalene? If we can't miss out one, why miss out the others?”

Grrr82CU: “There is a difference between Jesus’ disciples, of which there were many but not all were Apostles. On the other hand, Jesus’ Apostles, of which there were only twelve, were each also a disciple. It was Jesus’ apostles/disciples that were present at “The Last Supper”, not disciples who were not also Apostles. That is why Jesus’ mother and Mary Magdalene were not at the table. Neither were Apostles (Mt 10:2-4)”

We actually don't know who else might or might not have been present. We only have the basic bible story.
We cannot know how Leonardo interpreted it ~ or what 'artistic license' he used.

Quote:
PDM, 12/16/04: “The identity of 'the beloved disciple' is something of a mystery”

Grrr82CU: “Nothing personal, but it seems a bit ironic that the identity of the one “Jesus loved” can be described as “somewhat of a mystery” in the face of such assurances from so many that the figure to Jesus’ right in Leonardo’s painting is clear to them as being Mary Magdalene.”


Well, I don't think we know who 'the beloved disciple' was meant to be, but we do know that the person in the painting, who is usually called 'John', is meant to be that special disciple. Since we don't actually know that John was the 'disciple whom Jesus loved', then we don't know who the person seated next to Jesus was / is.
I don't think the person is referred to as the 'Apostle' whom Jesus loved???

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
It has already been established Leonardo portrayed young men with effeminate features so the figure to Jesus’ immediate right, John, would be so painted pursuant to the tradition of the Florentine School.

Quite possible, I agree.

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
Finally, to the claim that the writer of the Fourth Gospel does not identify the disciple in question so (a) it could be Mary Magdalene and/or (b) Mary Magdalene is the author of the Fourth Gospel...

None of the four Gospel accounts self-identify as do the writers of Ezekiel, Hosea, and many other Hebrew Testament authors. To the list of those biblical writers that do identify themselves as the authors can be added the name of the youngest and last to die Apostle when composing The Revelation as noted in Chapter 1, verse 1 (and yes, this writer is aware of those who as on every matter are called upon to argue that it was someone else that wrote The Revelation).


Basically, we don't know who wrote any of it and this leads to guesswork, supposition, debate and enquiry.
Scholars of Theology discuss & debate who the beloved disciple might have been and who wrote the books of the Bible. They don't know and neither do I. No-one does, not for sure.
Stories can be changed, and have been changed, to fit agendas.
I don't see anything that proves that Mary either was, or was not, the disciple Jesus loved.

Did Leonardo know? ~ Unlikely.
Did he have some unorthodox, even heretical ideas? ~ Possibly.
Who knows? ~ None of us.

We weren't there; neither in the Holy Land at the time of the 'Last Supper', nor in Leonardo's Renaissance Florence.

We don't know; so we wonder and suggest. We fill in the gaps with our imaginations.

But there is some mysterious artwork out there (eg Poussin) ~ and much is connected to the same range of ideas.

Leonardo's works of art are fascinating ~ and they get me to ask questions.
Questions are always worth asking, in my opinion.

.
.
.
.


Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
PDM: “The Romans invented glassware”

Grrr82CU: “You might want to check your information.”


When did I say that the Romans invented glassware?!
Sorry, I don't remember saying that. confused


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:28 PM)
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#215239 - 09/18/07 07:01 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: PDM, 09/18/07
When did I say that the Romans invented glassware?! Sorry, I don't remember saying that


Following the hyperlinks beginning with "The Last Supper by Leonardo Da Vinci", then to "The Chalice and Cups", title article:

Quote:
The Last Supper No Chalice and the Missing Cup


Quote:
It's a simple short cup. The shape is what the 'average person' back in those days of Roman Rule would have had. Remember, EVERYBODY drank wine at the time, even slaves. Water was considered dangerous to drink. The Romans invented glassware, so where the Greeks drank from metal, pottery or carved wooden cups, the Romans loved glass


Presumed you authored this section. Apologies if someone else.

Originally Posted By: PDM
I don't see anything that proves that Mary either was, or was not, the disciple Jesus loved


Again, Mary Magdalene did not run to herself as the "disciple Jesus loved" (Jn 20:2)

Sorry there isn't time to address more comments in this very limited reply. A bit envious of the freedom to compose such quick (and more encompassing) responses as you apparently do PDM. Will give best effort to address additional comments as time permits.

Grrr82CU smile
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#215725 - 09/19/07 06:00 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
PDM, 09/18/07: When did I say that the Romans invented glassware?! Sorry, I don't remember saying that.

Grrr82CU: Following the hyperlinks beginning with "The Last Supper by Leonardo Da Vinci", then to "The Chalice and Cups", title article:
...
Presumed you authored this section. Apologies if someone else.



No; as I said, it was a list of 'Some background & other info'.
I believe that Lisa may have writtenm that and I know that she is very knowledgeable about wine and its accoutrements, so she must have got it from somewhere, but I know not where.
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#215730 - 09/19/07 06:21 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU

PDM:I don't see anything that proves that Mary either was, or was not, the disciple Jesus loved.

Grrr82CU: Again, Mary Magdalene did not run to herself as the "disciple Jesus loved" (Jn 20:2)

Grrr82CU smile


You are assumimg that we can trust the Bible to be correct, yet we know that it has been tampered with.

There are two threads on this subject where this is discussed ~ and which show that this 'proof' is not reliable.

Here's one:
The Beloved Disciple
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=80006&fpart=1


Edited by PDM (09/20/07 04:10 AM)
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#215767 - 09/19/07 08:01 PM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: PDM
I don't see anything that proves that Mary either was, or was not, the disciple Jesus loved.
[Response - Grrr82CU] Again, Mary Magdalene did not run to herself as the "disciple Jesus loved" (Jn 20:2)


Originally Posted By: PDM
You are assumimg that we can trust the Bible to be correct, yet we know that it has been tampered with


Funny you should say that...since we have established that just about everything regarding Leonardo's celebrated "The Last Supper" has been "tampered with" in repainting, adding doorways, etc., yet it is touted as so trustworthy in displaying the symbol of the "Sacred Fememinie" in the "V" between Jesus and the person to his right" wink

We are agreed that "textual criticism" has been put to the test for a century and more working to determine the most accurate copies of biblical texts. More than one that bore evidencies to having been "tampered with" over the centuries (1 Jn 5:7 being the most notorious) were culled and discarded. The process is on-going, but because of this work there are more trustworthy than untrustworthy texts that have survived and been handed down to us. Ultimately, if God had it all written, then surely He has the power to assure that it reaches us in a more trustworthy form than not.

That having been said, in following the thread you provided, perhaps there is a misunderstanding on this writer's part as to what was supposed to be revealed.

Different renderings of how Jn 13:18-26 is translated from Greek into English in several bibles specific to the discription of a particular disciple being referred to as "the beloved disciple" (or any recognizable variation thereof) is not an example of "tampered" text - just an example of translator's preference.

Variety in wording of Jn 13:18-26 was in evidence in the link you provided to be sure, but unmistakeably the same meaning is discernable in all examples provided. The examples from several translations still offer similiar descriptive phrasing that the disciple in question was singularly described as being 'loved' by Jesus.

Also - the text quoted in this writer's original response was Jn 20:2, not Jn 13:18-26. Nothing in Jn 13:18-26 distinguishes between Mary Magdalene and the "beloved disciple"...but Jn 20:2 does!

Regardless of which translation is used, the distinction between Mary Magdalene and "the beloved disciple" in Jn 20:2 is incontrovertible, and also supported textually in every MSS.

Finally - after reading around in several areas of this expansive site, this writer is not going to mention time demands again after witnessing your own prodigious postings everywhere knowing the time involved in doing so. Good job!

"Seriously", offline for several days...but Grrr82CU smile

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#215797 - 09/20/07 04:21 AM Re: Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw ?? [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
I do not consider that Leonardo's art is proof of anything; nor do I consider the Bible to be proof of anything. (I certainly wouldn't rely on it simply because some believe it to be God's word.)

I consider the story of 'the beloved disciple' to be an intriguiong one, leaving many unanswered questions & I also consider Leonardo's works to be intriguing, including The Last Supper ~ and, of course, 'the disciple Jesus loved' is the link.

I ask questions because I am intrigued ~ I don't necessarily expect to find answers, but I don't think that others have the answers, either, because the origins of both works are lost in the mists of time.

Now that I am working, I have less time to devote to the forum than I once had. However, I do like to stay involved in these interesting discussions. smile
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