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#219773 - 10/13/07 05:12 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.

Something I thought the readers would enjoy.
A documentary on the Knights Templar history.
http://www.tv-links.co.uk/video/9/7580/12213/74307/104323




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#219882 - 10/13/07 09:06 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Part 1

Originally Posted By: this writer
Although there may seem to be a degree of redundancy to some while reading what follows, please keep in mind it is offered with the intent of looking at the issue from different but related perspectives


Originally Posted By: PDM
I have been reading about the letter 'Y'. I hadn't realized that it was so interesting


Indeed…but it’s not about the “Y”, it’s about how it’s used that critical analysis should be brought to bear !!

The function of a “Y” must be differentiated between its use in an alphabet associated with language construction versus a stand alone function as a symbol wherein it has nothing to do with word assembly.

To say it another way, just because a linguistically-unrelated “Y” is found painted on to or chiseled into a ancient wall somewhere does not validate the claim that Leonardo da Vinci used a linguistically-related “Y” to paint "by optical illusion" the name "Mar-y" on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa.

Any occurrence observed as "generalized usage" of the “Y” whether by Euclid, Templars, or Masons must be evaluated on the basis of whether or not it occurred in a language setting versus within (surrounded by) a language wherein it functions as no more than a "symbol". If a ”Y” is not "in" a word but was merely a "symbol" representing an early concept, philosophy, or mathematical expression, then it would not have been carried forward into a modern day word like “Mar-y” before the language naturally evolved by the slow process of assimilation and accommodation of other language characteristics over centuries into something like today’s English.

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU, 10/06/07
… what “evidence to this end” is there suggesting "Mary” was in colloquial usage in Leonardo’s time?


Originally Posted By: da Vinci Project spokesperson submitted under the screen name “nanago”, 10/07/07
Why would I let out all my research at this time and point, but I did point you in a direction, now if You want Grrr82CU you can research this for yourself, I have spent 4 years on this


Thank you for the general “compass heading” and the insight this response has provided regarding the “da Vinci Project, Research Group” thinking.

Presuming the above response was authored by Michael Domoretsky, Executive Director and/or Graham Noll, Operations Manager of the “da Vinci Project, Research Group” (entered under the screen name of “nanago” on 10/06 and 10/07 compared with other entries), the question was not meant as a request to disclose specifics of research per se, only to understand the scope and nature of information being considered relative to maintaining the position that Leonardo used either (a) a modern English word (“Mary”) and/or (b) that name was in colloquial usage during Leonardo’s life.

Originally Posted By: da Vinci Project spokesperson continued, 10/06/07
If you find evidence….in contradiction to a specific finding by all means let us know so that we can include it in our deliberations (elided portion this writer for brevity)


Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/07/07

  • Euclid used the letter "Y" in his Arabic Language,250-325 BC
  • Ptolemy, Also used the "Y", 250-325 BC
  • Pythagoras, Also used the letter "Y" in Greek, Language


Pursuant to the invitation to bring forth anything in “contradiction”:

Given all that follows, it seems highly improbable that proponents will ever be able to produce examples in support of their claims that the “Y” was in limited (much less widespread) grammatical usage in the times of Euclid, Ptolemy, Pythagoras, or Leonardo for the following reasons:

  • With all due respect, it seems there is a greater probability that when proponents such as the "da Vinci Project, Research Group" encounter a “Y” in a historical setting (such as the Pythagorean “Y”), the conclusion drawn is a misinterpretation of it as a “letter” rather than seeing it in the context of its original purpose as a “symbol

We see this confirmed, no doubt unintentionally, in the following quotations:

Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/10/07
The "Y" was also used with the Masons and Templars in the Year 1100 CE. as a Symbol and a Mark..(“BC” corrected to “CE” as a courtesy. Color emphasis also added by this writer)
Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/11/07
If you were a 'Mason or Templar', you would understand that both these Orders used the "Y" in there Symbols and Marks
Quote:
...a few places where the "Y" ,was used in Symbols dating from 1100, 12th Century
Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/11/07
...from Monserrat in Spain you will also see in the first picture that everything Jesus and the men around him are holding are both Masonic and "Templar Symbols"


Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

As seen from these quotations, the "Y" is being interpreted as a "symbol" ~ yet ~ Leonardo is supposed to have migrated it from being only a "symbol" into a "letter" to create "Mar-y"
  • Considering the alphabets of the languages they apparently used during their lifetimes, where are examples from the writings of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras in which they used a ”Y” in the spelling of a word ?? (such as in English for toda-y, Johnn-y, anal-y-sis, y-ellow). Such examples don't exist.

  • Based upon any study of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras that Leonardo did, why would he have painted either a word, ("Mary”) ~or word ending ~“Y”) on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa ?? After all, as all historic evidence of the alphabets, grammar, and linguistic usage involved shows (in spite of claims by the "da Vinci Project, Research Group"), Leonardo could not have found examples in early Italian or the Greek/Egyptian/Arabic of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras to inspire or mentor him on how to spell with a " Y " because it was missing in all of their words as a LETTER (compared to a "Symbol" used to accompany "words" in sentences but not to construct (spell) a "WORD" ) !!


So as not to have one post of mind-numbing length, it has been split up into several entries that follow in numbered sequence.

...and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219883 - 10/13/07 09:07 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Part 2

Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

One of the earliest indicators that Leonardo did not know the languages of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras (Greek, Egyptian, Arabic) or even the written Italian of his day very well, is one of his earliest works, The Codex Trivulzianus. In it is found a list of 8,000 words (+/-) from common spoken Italian, not from one or more of the languages of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras.



Those who have studied Leonardo believe he compiled the list (which incidentally does not contain a “Mary”) in an effort to improve his ability to converse at a higher level as he moved into more cultured circles (e.g. the Milanese Court of the Sforzas).

Where was Leonardo “educated”? It was a Florentine workshop where he received his training as an artesian. Being taught either Latin or Greek was apparently not part of the curriculum. It is again believed by those who have studied him that Leonardo even had little grasp of formal, written Italian (although over time as his writings evidence he improved). Still, his intent to improve himself is also evidenced by the collection of vocabulary words in The Codex Trivulzianus.

Given this information, how much less likely is it that Leonardo created a word that was totally new for his time, “Mary” ?? Not only would the word/name have been “new” in his language in this format but also the use of the letter (not as a “symbol” ) “Y”, that also did not exist in his native Italian. Neither did it exist in the Greek, neither in Latin, neither in Egyptian, and not in Arabic as proponents of their hypothesis that he gained from studying Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras.

The letters J, K, W, X and Y are not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet but are modern-day loan words as in “whisk-y”. To emphasize again, only in modern times does the “Y” appear, referred to as the “ipsilon/i greca” as a “borrowed” letter for “borrowed” words and is not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet

Returning to images” such as the “Pythagorean “Y”” which represented neither a “word” nor an “alphabetic letter”, Pythagoras developed his “Y” as a “symbol” for the progressive stages of man’s maturity.

The single line (base of the “Y”) represented man from birth to an age of choice. Upon reaching the age of choice, the single line splits into two. One line thereafter proceeds upward to the left representing choices with less desirable outcomes made in life and one proceeding upward to the right representing the opposite, good outcomes resulting from good choices.

This is not a “letter” – it is a “SYMBOL” – so if and when it is seen in a Templar or Mason setting, it is not a “letter” to be used in constructing a “word” !!

What about the Arabic of Euclid and Ptolemy ?? First, we presume that although they were Greek because they lived in Alexandria Egypt they spoke both Greek and Arabic. So in Arabic, is there a letter “Y” ??

No !!

Other than a linguistic accommodation in modern times wherein the Arabic letter “Za” (" &#65221; ") is transliterated (not translated) into a “Y” to accommodate the (also modern but not earlier) English/Latin alphabet and sound, there is no “Y” in Arabic. Leonardo could not have learned to use a “Y” from studying Euclid or Ptolemy writing in Arabic.

What about Greek ?? Is there a “Y” in Greek ??

The Greek – “&#936;" is the letter “Psi” (upper case) which is sometimes mistaken for a “Y”. It is not a not a “Y” in any sense of joining to an English word such as “Mar=y”.

What’s more, the Greek “Y” is the letter Upsilon (upper case) – but neither is it a “Y” to be joined to form “Mar-y” but a “Waw”, the sixth letter of Phoenician, Hebrew, Syriac, and…ARABIC. It is also used to represent the number 700.

Once again those who try to link the sleeve of The Mona Lisa to a highlighted spelling of “Mar-y” from Leonardo’s study of Greeks Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras are thwarted. There is no “Y” in Greek corresponding to the English construction of the word “Mary” which they claim Leonardo painted into the folds of the cloth on her forearm by creating an “optical illusion”.

More detail regarding the Arabic “Yodh” (“ya”) "&#65265;" which has corresponding equivalents in Hebrew, Syriac, and Phoenician, all of which have some tie to the development of the modern “Y” would result in the same outcome. The “Y” supposedly appearing at the end of the “optical illusion” “Mary” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa simply did not exist in any language that Leonardo da Vinci would have encountered in his travels or studies in his day.

Conclusion follows

...and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219884 - 10/13/07 09:07 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Part 3 - Conclusion

Through out Posts 1 & 2, the underlying goal has been:

Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

As has been documented, “symbols” ( such as the Pythagorean “Y” ) have repeatedly been mistaken for “letters” ( such as the modern-day English “Y” ).

“Symbols” don’t spell words, “Letters” spell words !!

The claim that the works of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras somehow taught Leonardo da Vinci to adapt a “Y-Symbol” to function as a “Y-Letter” so that he could identify The Mona Lisa as really being “Mar-y” simply cannot be reconciled with the fact that the alphabets of the languages in question at the time of their development (pre & post Leonardo da Vinci’s time) did not (and still do not other than modern-day “borrowed” words) contain a “Y”.

As seen from the information provided in Posts 1 & 2, it does not matter what historic setting a “Y” being used as a symbol is found. As a “symbol”, a “Y” can potentially appear in a geometric equation of Euclid or Ptolemy, a mathematical-religious relationship of Pythagoras, or be used as a symbol or mark by Templars or Masons but it does not represent anything used as a word-construction.

Finally, what did Leonardo say about “how to paint folds” ??

Originally Posted By: Leonardo da Vinci, “Treatise On Painting”
“…that in the mass of light there be not any dark fold, and the mass of shadows none receiving too great a light. They must go gently over, describing the parts; but not with the lines across, cutting the members with hard notches, deeper than the part can possibly be; at the same time, it must fit the body, and not appear like an empty bundle of cloth…I do not deny that we ought not to neglect introducing some handsome folds among these draperies, but it must be done with great judgment, and suited to the parts, where, by the actions of the limbs and position of the whole body, they gather together.”


Leonardo goes on to explain in great detail how “foreshortening” as the folds come nearer to the viewer is critical. He also speaks to the weight of the fabric wherein more rounded peaks are for heavier cloth whereas lighter cloth has a sharper edge to the fold.

If one looks beyond the attempt to trace the name of “Mary” on the folds of The Mona Lisa, all of the above techniques are readily observed. The cloth is heavy so the folds correspond to Leonardo’s recommendations. As the cloth gets nearer to the hands, and thus nearer to the viewer, they are foreshortened accordingly.

Exercising all of the above described techniques was not an attempt by Leonardo to create an “optical illusion” to reveal the “real identity” of The Mona Lisa – most especially using a word and a letter that did not exist in his native Italian, nor in the Greek, nor in the Arabic, nor in the English, of his day.

So...why did Leonardo study Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras ??

All one has to do is read his manuscripts and look at his drawings on the use of Geometry to create perspective and other uses to understand why he studied those fathers of Geometry for use in his paintings. It wasn’t to learn about a ”Y” that did not exist in their languages.

…and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219897 - 10/14/07 04:58 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
The UBB Code link in Part 2 to display The Codex Trivulzianus was working w/o being "prompted" after being posted and later reviewed. No idea why it doesn't seem to be displaying today.

If you encounter this on your computer, first, try "right clicking" in the space and/or the boxed "x" where the picture is supposed to be. That action activated the hyperlink and brought up the picture for this writer. If that is unsuccessful for you, here is the URL to view separately:

http://www.museoscienza.org/English/leonardo/img/codicetrivulziano.jpg

Grrr82CU2 frown

(Note to PDM: As an administrator, if you want to enter the post to correct any of the UBB Code that is incorrect in Part 2 so that the .gif automatically displays, please do so. Also, there is an unclosed UBB underline code in the middle of Part 3 (noticed too late to edit) which again if you wish to correct, you have this writer's permission...and thanks ! )

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#219906 - 10/14/07 07:36 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU, very well done!, This is not a “letter” – it is a “SYMBOL” I agree! You are getting closer!

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#219930 - 10/14/07 10:45 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: nanago
Grrr82CU, very well done!


Given the tone of one or two of the previous responses, this is unexpected !!

Thank you.

Although this writer is still unconvinced that Leonardo deliberately painted the name ""Mary" into the folds of cloth on the right forearm of The Mona Lisa - after doing this three-part project, it is easy to understand how your research of four/five years could easily become ten.

...and Grrr82CU smile
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#219985 - 10/14/07 06:12 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
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Grrr82CU,What is interesting is that Leonardo wrote a language of his own using Symbols within Pictorgrams, perhaps we will even understand and learn someday that Leonardo also had his hands involved in the very elusive Vonych Manuscripts, after all they have been quite the puzzle for some time now.

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#220126 - 10/15/07 06:48 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
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Grrr82CU,I thought you would like to know that in the Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci, compiled and edited from the original manuscripts,By Jean Paul Richter, (Section I.page 4 explains that Leonardo did use the letter "y".

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#220130 - 10/15/07 08:22 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Thanks PDM

Will make every effort to avoid a repetition...promise !!

Grrr82CU smile
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Youth Soccer And Ring Pops
by gallerr
11/15/17 11:37 PM
Meditate
by Lisa Shea
11/15/17 10:06 PM
bike gear cyanotypes
by Lisa Shea
11/15/17 05:02 PM
Zuzu is a literary cat!
by Lisa Shea
11/15/17 12:28 AM
10 Things Every Amateur Football Team Will Need
by wu yu
11/13/17 01:51 AM
Zuzu and Felix, our two black kittens
by Lisa Shea
11/07/17 03:43 PM
Teaming Up For The Fifa 2010 Soccer World Cup
by Brettt
10/26/17 08:35 AM
Yoga
by Lisa Shea
10/23/17 03:07 PM
Knowing Yourself
by Lisa Shea
10/20/17 02:58 AM
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