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#219220 - 10/09/07 02:14 PM 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: nanago
Mary in Italian is short for Maria, this is a fact!, It does not matter if Leonardo was Italian or not it has no play on the name chosen by Leonardo.
Note the name Mary, as in Mary Magdalean!
There is proof of Leonardo using optical illusion in most of his work from a young age to his twilight ages and Leonardo writes of the use of this in his notes very clearly, the Experts have totally missed this.


Originally Posted By: Grrr82cu
"So, enough on this. Leonardo didn’t paint the folds of cloth on the forearm of The Mona Lisa to form the name “Mary” in English. Leonardo painted many fabrics with elaborate folds, peaks and valleys, and Vasari wasn’t the lying scoundrel just trying to sell his books as accused."

Originally Posted By: nanago
Grrr82CU:
Euclid used the letter "Y" in his Arabic Language,250-325 BC.
Ptolemy, Also used the "Y", 250-325 BC.
Pythagoras, Also used the letter "Y" in Greek, Language.

da Vinci studied all three men faithfully when he was studying Astronomy and mathematics etc.
In Da Vinci's own handwriting, Manuscripts / Codex and Symbols, he also reveals he used this letter and others.

Why would I let out all my research at this time and point, but I did point you in a direction, now if You want Grrr82CU you can research this for yourself, I have spent 4 years on this.

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU
Did Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras use the letter "Y" ??

What did all three have in common that would have attracted Leonardo to study them ??

Could Leonardo have used the "Y" said to be seen in the works of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Phythagoras as the last letter of the name "Mary" deliberately painted into the folds of cloth on the forearm of The Mona Lisa as suggested by the "da Vinci Project, Research Group" ??

The answers...in a day or two when time permits.

...and Grrr82CU smile

Originally Posted By: PDM
I have been reading about the letter 'Y'. I hadn't realised that it was so interesting:

'.. the Pythagorean Letter Y (Littera Pythagorae Y), which is perhaps less well known nowadays than the other Pythagorean symbols, but has been quite influential in European art, literature and thought ..'

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/Intro.html#Y
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/category/fibs-that-tell-no-lies/
http://vunex.blogspot.com/2006/11/garden-of-forking-paths.html
http://vunex.blogspot.com/2006/11/de-bry-ypsilon.html

Originally Posted By: nanago
...
Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, The History of these people are very important.
I can also tell you that the letter "Y" was also used as a symbol by the Templar/Masons in the 12th Century, and yes before you ask I do have proof of this.
Grrr82CU The letter "Y",has been used in more different ways than you and I can even Imagine!


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:32 PM)
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#219281 - 10/09/07 09:46 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
To help set discussion in this new forum in motion, the following is a redacted post entered by this writer on 10/03/07 in “Leonardo’s Painting, A Fatal Flaw ??”

The da Vinci Project, Research Group presents the word 'Mary' in highlight supposedly painted into the folds of The Mona Lisa’s right forearm by Leonardo (which was later argued that he did so based upon his study of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras).

So…what's wrong with the name 'Mary' on The Mona Lisa’s sleeve ??

"Leonardo did not speak or write in English (and neither did Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras).

If Leonardo was going to write the “true name” of the painting known as “The Mona Lisa” on the forearm of her right sleeve as argued that he did by a representative of the "da Vinci Project, Research Group", what language would Leonardo most likely have chosen ??

Hebrew/Aramaic ?? his own Italian ?? English ?? Egyptian/Arabic ?? Greek ??

If Leonardo used his native language (Italian), he would have painted the folds of cloth to spell out 'Maria', which of course he didn't since that name will not fit the folds of cloth on The Mona Lisa’s arm as he painted it.

If Leonardo had chosen instead to represent the name of “Mary” in her native language (Judeo-Aramaic) he would have painted the folds of cloth to be traceable as 'Maryam' (derived from the Hebrew “Miriam”) but which once again he did not.

What about choosing English ??

If Leonardo had written in the English of his day, it bore absolutely no resemblance to today’s English !! Try reading Canterbury Tales in Chaucerian English just for starters (Chaucer lived 1343 – 1400).

In the following example from Luke 8 in the English of Leonardo’s day, note the name of 'Mary Magdalene':

Originally Posted By: Luke 8:1-3
Syððan wæs geworden þæt he ferde þurh þa ceastre and þæt castel: godes rice prediciende and bodiende. and hi twelfe mid. And sume wif þe wæron gehælede of awyrgdum gastum: and untrumnessum: seo [color:#CC0000][b]magdalenisce maria ofþære seofan deoflu uteodon: and iohanna chuzan wif herodes gerefan: and susanna and manega oðre þe him of hyra spedum þenedon.[/b][/color]


Observe that even in early English, 'Mary' was 'Maria'just like in Leonardo’s Italian so the "Y" the "da Vinci Project, Research Group" spokesperson argues Leonardo attached to "Mar.." to form "Mar-Y" did not come from early English as it would from today's English. Trying to write "Mary" based upon the Greek or Arabic of Leonardo's day (and that of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras) will be addressed in another entry.

After this post was originally entered (in the other forum) discussion was exchanged wherein one or more representatives of the “da Vinci Project, Research Group” argued that their research indicates “Mary” was in use colloquially (in one form or another) in Leonardo’s time which in turn provided the basis for him to have painted it as a “non-modern English name” on the sleeve of the Mona Lisa.

It is about at this juncture in the discussion in the other forum, that this new board was opened specific to the topic of the “Y” in relation to being combined into the name "Mar-Y".

This writer is preparing a response to address in greater detail whether or not Leonardo’s study of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras would have led him to use a 'Y' (in 'Mar-Y') instead of an “IA” (in 'Mar-IA') as contended by the "da Vinci Project, Research Group".

When it is finished (no sooner than several days from now due to extremely limited available time), it will be posted here rather than the previous base of discussions which was “Leonardo’s Painting – A Fatal Flaw ??

…and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:32 PM)
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Thanks For Visiting !!

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#219310 - 10/10/07 08:18 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
Thanks!
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#219354 - 10/10/07 12:23 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
The "Y" was also used with the Masons and Templars in the Year 1100 BC. as a Symbol and a Mark..

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#219477 - 10/11/07 04:05 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
1100BC??

I don't think that the Masons or Templars were around then??!!
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"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#219524 - 10/11/07 10:06 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
If you were a 'Mason or Templar', you would understand that both these Orders used the "Y" in there Symbols and Marks, but one would have to be deeply involved in this to see and understand the Truth!!??

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#219528 - 10/11/07 10:38 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Just to name a few places where the "Y" ,was used in Symbols dating from 1100, 12th Century

Crypt of Canterbury Cathedral
Lumley Castle
Bolton Castle 12,
York Minaster

I can tell you one thing for sure, being part of and having a background with family in the orders dating back over 4 hundred years that the Letter 'Y" was used in many ways! But it is Not for me to explain how or why, that is up to you to research.



Edited by nanago (10/11/07 10:41 AM)

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#219536 - 10/11/07 11:06 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.
Some other places the :Y" was used.

Rosslyn Chapel,
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/mason's_marks.htm

Monserrat, Spain.
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/spain/montserrat-shrine.htm


Now under this link from Monserrat in Spain you will also see in the first picture that everything Jesus and the men around him are holding are both Masonic and "Templar Symbols", everything
http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/...7348&sid=c0

The Montserrat Virgin was found in a cave on top of the mountain in the 800's. It was a site of pilgrimage and a monastery was founded there several hundred,

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Montserrat,_Spain




Edited by nanago (10/11/07 11:24 AM)

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#219660 - 10/12/07 04:45 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
PDM Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22788
Loc: UK
So you are talking 'AD', not 'BC'.

That does make quite a difference.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#219764 - 10/12/07 10:43 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.

Vatican paper set to clear Knights Templar
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/05/wvatican105.xml


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/...4f84&k=7416



Knights Templar win heresy reprieve after 700 years

The Templars, whose full name was "Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon," were founded in 1119 by knights sworn to protecting Christian pilgrims visiting the Holy Land after the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099.
The Knights have also been portrayed as guardians of the legendary Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper before his crucifixion.

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#219773 - 10/13/07 05:12 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
Regular

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.A.

Something I thought the readers would enjoy.
A documentary on the Knights Templar history.
http://www.tv-links.co.uk/video/9/7580/12213/74307/104323




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#219882 - 10/13/07 09:06 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
Part 1

Originally Posted By: this writer
Although there may seem to be a degree of redundancy to some while reading what follows, please keep in mind it is offered with the intent of looking at the issue from different but related perspectives


Originally Posted By: PDM
I have been reading about the letter 'Y'. I hadn't realized that it was so interesting


Indeed…but it’s not about the “Y”, it’s about how it’s used that critical analysis should be brought to bear !!

The function of a “Y” must be differentiated between its use in an alphabet associated with language construction versus a stand alone function as a symbol wherein it has nothing to do with word assembly.

To say it another way, just because a linguistically-unrelated “Y” is found painted on to or chiseled into a ancient wall somewhere does not validate the claim that Leonardo da Vinci used a linguistically-related “Y” to paint "by optical illusion" the name "Mar-y" on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa.

Any occurrence observed as "generalized usage" of the “Y” whether by Euclid, Templars, or Masons must be evaluated on the basis of whether or not it occurred in a language setting versus within (surrounded by) a language wherein it functions as no more than a "symbol". If a ”Y” is not "in" a word but was merely a "symbol" representing an early concept, philosophy, or mathematical expression, then it would not have been carried forward into a modern day word like “Mar-y” before the language naturally evolved by the slow process of assimilation and accommodation of other language characteristics over centuries into something like today’s English.

Originally Posted By: Grrr82CU, 10/06/07
… what “evidence to this end” is there suggesting "Mary” was in colloquial usage in Leonardo’s time?


Originally Posted By: da Vinci Project spokesperson submitted under the screen name “nanago”, 10/07/07
Why would I let out all my research at this time and point, but I did point you in a direction, now if You want Grrr82CU you can research this for yourself, I have spent 4 years on this


Thank you for the general “compass heading” and the insight this response has provided regarding the “da Vinci Project, Research Group” thinking.

Presuming the above response was authored by Michael Domoretsky, Executive Director and/or Graham Noll, Operations Manager of the “da Vinci Project, Research Group” (entered under the screen name of “nanago” on 10/06 and 10/07 compared with other entries), the question was not meant as a request to disclose specifics of research per se, only to understand the scope and nature of information being considered relative to maintaining the position that Leonardo used either (a) a modern English word (“Mary”) and/or (b) that name was in colloquial usage during Leonardo’s life.

Originally Posted By: da Vinci Project spokesperson continued, 10/06/07
If you find evidence….in contradiction to a specific finding by all means let us know so that we can include it in our deliberations (elided portion this writer for brevity)


Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/07/07

  • Euclid used the letter "Y" in his Arabic Language,250-325 BC
  • Ptolemy, Also used the "Y", 250-325 BC
  • Pythagoras, Also used the letter "Y" in Greek, Language


Pursuant to the invitation to bring forth anything in “contradiction”:

Given all that follows, it seems highly improbable that proponents will ever be able to produce examples in support of their claims that the “Y” was in limited (much less widespread) grammatical usage in the times of Euclid, Ptolemy, Pythagoras, or Leonardo for the following reasons:

  • With all due respect, it seems there is a greater probability that when proponents such as the "da Vinci Project, Research Group" encounter a “Y” in a historical setting (such as the Pythagorean “Y”), the conclusion drawn is a misinterpretation of it as a “letter” rather than seeing it in the context of its original purpose as a “symbol

We see this confirmed, no doubt unintentionally, in the following quotations:

Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/10/07
The "Y" was also used with the Masons and Templars in the Year 1100 CE. as a Symbol and a Mark..(“BC” corrected to “CE” as a courtesy. Color emphasis also added by this writer)
Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/11/07
If you were a 'Mason or Templar', you would understand that both these Orders used the "Y" in there Symbols and Marks
Quote:
...a few places where the "Y" ,was used in Symbols dating from 1100, 12th Century
Originally Posted By: nanago, 10/11/07
...from Monserrat in Spain you will also see in the first picture that everything Jesus and the men around him are holding are both Masonic and "Templar Symbols"


Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

As seen from these quotations, the "Y" is being interpreted as a "symbol" ~ yet ~ Leonardo is supposed to have migrated it from being only a "symbol" into a "letter" to create "Mar-y"
  • Considering the alphabets of the languages they apparently used during their lifetimes, where are examples from the writings of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras in which they used a ”Y” in the spelling of a word ?? (such as in English for toda-y, Johnn-y, anal-y-sis, y-ellow). Such examples don't exist.

  • Based upon any study of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras that Leonardo did, why would he have painted either a word, ("Mary”) ~or word ending ~“Y”) on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa ?? After all, as all historic evidence of the alphabets, grammar, and linguistic usage involved shows (in spite of claims by the "da Vinci Project, Research Group"), Leonardo could not have found examples in early Italian or the Greek/Egyptian/Arabic of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras to inspire or mentor him on how to spell with a " Y " because it was missing in all of their words as a LETTER (compared to a "Symbol" used to accompany "words" in sentences but not to construct (spell) a "WORD" ) !!


So as not to have one post of mind-numbing length, it has been split up into several entries that follow in numbered sequence.

...and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219883 - 10/13/07 09:07 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Part 2

Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

One of the earliest indicators that Leonardo did not know the languages of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras (Greek, Egyptian, Arabic) or even the written Italian of his day very well, is one of his earliest works, The Codex Trivulzianus. In it is found a list of 8,000 words (+/-) from common spoken Italian, not from one or more of the languages of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras.



Those who have studied Leonardo believe he compiled the list (which incidentally does not contain a “Mary”) in an effort to improve his ability to converse at a higher level as he moved into more cultured circles (e.g. the Milanese Court of the Sforzas).

Where was Leonardo “educated”? It was a Florentine workshop where he received his training as an artesian. Being taught either Latin or Greek was apparently not part of the curriculum. It is again believed by those who have studied him that Leonardo even had little grasp of formal, written Italian (although over time as his writings evidence he improved). Still, his intent to improve himself is also evidenced by the collection of vocabulary words in The Codex Trivulzianus.

Given this information, how much less likely is it that Leonardo created a word that was totally new for his time, “Mary” ?? Not only would the word/name have been “new” in his language in this format but also the use of the letter (not as a “symbol” ) “Y”, that also did not exist in his native Italian. Neither did it exist in the Greek, neither in Latin, neither in Egyptian, and not in Arabic as proponents of their hypothesis that he gained from studying Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras.

The letters J, K, W, X and Y are not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet but are modern-day loan words as in “whisk-y”. To emphasize again, only in modern times does the “Y” appear, referred to as the “ipsilon/i greca” as a “borrowed” letter for “borrowed” words and is not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet

Returning to images” such as the “Pythagorean “Y”” which represented neither a “word” nor an “alphabetic letter”, Pythagoras developed his “Y” as a “symbol” for the progressive stages of man’s maturity.

The single line (base of the “Y”) represented man from birth to an age of choice. Upon reaching the age of choice, the single line splits into two. One line thereafter proceeds upward to the left representing choices with less desirable outcomes made in life and one proceeding upward to the right representing the opposite, good outcomes resulting from good choices.

This is not a “letter” – it is a “SYMBOL” – so if and when it is seen in a Templar or Mason setting, it is not a “letter” to be used in constructing a “word” !!

What about the Arabic of Euclid and Ptolemy ?? First, we presume that although they were Greek because they lived in Alexandria Egypt they spoke both Greek and Arabic. So in Arabic, is there a letter “Y” ??

No !!

Other than a linguistic accommodation in modern times wherein the Arabic letter “Za” (" ﻅ ") is transliterated (not translated) into a “Y” to accommodate the (also modern but not earlier) English/Latin alphabet and sound, there is no “Y” in Arabic. Leonardo could not have learned to use a “Y” from studying Euclid or Ptolemy writing in Arabic.

What about Greek ?? Is there a “Y” in Greek ??

The Greek – “Ψ" is the letter “Psi” (upper case) which is sometimes mistaken for a “Y”. It is not a not a “Y” in any sense of joining to an English word such as “Mar=y”.

What’s more, the Greek “Y” is the letter Upsilon (upper case) – but neither is it a “Y” to be joined to form “Mar-y” but a “Waw”, the sixth letter of Phoenician, Hebrew, Syriac, and…ARABIC. It is also used to represent the number 700.

Once again those who try to link the sleeve of The Mona Lisa to a highlighted spelling of “Mar-y” from Leonardo’s study of Greeks Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras are thwarted. There is no “Y” in Greek corresponding to the English construction of the word “Mary” which they claim Leonardo painted into the folds of the cloth on her forearm by creating an “optical illusion”.

More detail regarding the Arabic “Yodh” (“ya”) "ﻱ" which has corresponding equivalents in Hebrew, Syriac, and Phoenician, all of which have some tie to the development of the modern “Y” would result in the same outcome. The “Y” supposedly appearing at the end of the “optical illusion” “Mary” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa simply did not exist in any language that Leonardo da Vinci would have encountered in his travels or studies in his day.

Conclusion follows

...and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219884 - 10/13/07 09:07 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Part 3 - Conclusion

Through out Posts 1 & 2, the underlying goal has been:

Originally Posted By: this writer
Reminder - this is about evaluating the claim that Leonardo da Vinci, ostensibly because of his studies of Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras, employed a "Y" in painting the name of "Mar- y" by “optical illusion” on the sleeve of The Mona Lisa, a name not occurring in his Italian, using a [color:#000099][b]“letter” not in his alphabet that had not even evolved into English usage at the time he painted The Mona Lisa !!
[/color][/b]

As has been documented, “symbols” ( such as the Pythagorean “Y” ) have repeatedly been mistaken for “letters” ( such as the modern-day English “Y” ).

“Symbols” don’t spell words, “Letters” spell words !!

The claim that the works of Euclid, Ptolemy, or Pythagoras somehow taught Leonardo da Vinci to adapt a “Y-Symbol” to function as a “Y-Letter” so that he could identify The Mona Lisa as really being “Mar-y” simply cannot be reconciled with the fact that the alphabets of the languages in question at the time of their development (pre & post Leonardo da Vinci’s time) did not (and still do not other than modern-day “borrowed” words) contain a “Y”.

As seen from the information provided in Posts 1 & 2, it does not matter what historic setting a “Y” being used as a symbol is found. As a “symbol”, a “Y” can potentially appear in a geometric equation of Euclid or Ptolemy, a mathematical-religious relationship of Pythagoras, or be used as a symbol or mark by Templars or Masons but it does not represent anything used as a word-construction.

Finally, what did Leonardo say about “how to paint folds” ??

Originally Posted By: Leonardo da Vinci, “Treatise On Painting”
“…that in the mass of light there be not any dark fold, and the mass of shadows none receiving too great a light. They must go gently over, describing the parts; but not with the lines across, cutting the members with hard notches, deeper than the part can possibly be; at the same time, it must fit the body, and not appear like an empty bundle of cloth…I do not deny that we ought not to neglect introducing some handsome folds among these draperies, but it must be done with great judgment, and suited to the parts, where, by the actions of the limbs and position of the whole body, they gather together.”


Leonardo goes on to explain in great detail how “foreshortening” as the folds come nearer to the viewer is critical. He also speaks to the weight of the fabric wherein more rounded peaks are for heavier cloth whereas lighter cloth has a sharper edge to the fold.

If one looks beyond the attempt to trace the name of “Mary” on the folds of The Mona Lisa, all of the above techniques are readily observed. The cloth is heavy so the folds correspond to Leonardo’s recommendations. As the cloth gets nearer to the hands, and thus nearer to the viewer, they are foreshortened accordingly.

Exercising all of the above described techniques was not an attempt by Leonardo to create an “optical illusion” to reveal the “real identity” of The Mona Lisa – most especially using a word and a letter that did not exist in his native Italian, nor in the Greek, nor in the Arabic, nor in the English, of his day.

So...why did Leonardo study Euclid, Ptolemy, and Pythagoras ??

All one has to do is read his manuscripts and look at his drawings on the use of Geometry to create perspective and other uses to understand why he studied those fathers of Geometry for use in his paintings. It wasn’t to learn about a ”Y” that did not exist in their languages.

…and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#219897 - 10/14/07 04:58 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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The UBB Code link in Part 2 to display The Codex Trivulzianus was working w/o being "prompted" after being posted and later reviewed. No idea why it doesn't seem to be displaying today.

If you encounter this on your computer, first, try "right clicking" in the space and/or the boxed "x" where the picture is supposed to be. That action activated the hyperlink and brought up the picture for this writer. If that is unsuccessful for you, here is the URL to view separately:

http://www.museoscienza.org/English/leonardo/img/codicetrivulziano.jpg

Grrr82CU2 frown

(Note to PDM: As an administrator, if you want to enter the post to correct any of the UBB Code that is incorrect in Part 2 so that the .gif automatically displays, please do so. Also, there is an unclosed UBB underline code in the middle of Part 3 (noticed too late to edit) which again if you wish to correct, you have this writer's permission...and thanks ! )

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#219906 - 10/14/07 07:36 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU, very well done!, This is not a “letter” – it is a “SYMBOL” I agree! You are getting closer!

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#219930 - 10/14/07 10:45 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Originally Posted By: nanago
Grrr82CU, very well done!


Given the tone of one or two of the previous responses, this is unexpected !!

Thank you.

Although this writer is still unconvinced that Leonardo deliberately painted the name ""Mary" into the folds of cloth on the right forearm of The Mona Lisa - after doing this three-part project, it is easy to understand how your research of four/five years could easily become ten.

...and Grrr82CU smile
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#219985 - 10/14/07 06:12 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU,What is interesting is that Leonardo wrote a language of his own using Symbols within Pictorgrams, perhaps we will even understand and learn someday that Leonardo also had his hands involved in the very elusive Vonych Manuscripts, after all they have been quite the puzzle for some time now.

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#220126 - 10/15/07 06:48 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU,I thought you would like to know that in the Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci, compiled and edited from the original manuscripts,By Jean Paul Richter, (Section I.page 4 explains that Leonardo did use the letter "y".

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#220130 - 10/15/07 08:22 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Thanks PDM

Will make every effort to avoid a repetition...promise !!

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#220131 - 10/15/07 08:26 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Originally Posted By: nanago
Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci, compiled and edited from the original manuscripts,By Jean Paul Richter


Old copy of this is buried somewhere. Will look into.

...and Grrr82CU smile
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#220472 - 10/18/07 06:21 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Just a quick update regarding a response about the material authored by Jean Paul Richter posted by 'nanago':

Most of this writer's library is stored in another city in a different state (USA) due to a recent move.

In the meantime...

The criteron that will have to be satisfied remains whether any use of a "Y" (as stated by 'nanago' was presented by J. Richter) was as a "Letter" (which was not a naturally occurying member of Leonardo's Italian alphabet) that he employed in the spelling of a word...or...was it used as a "Symbol" in a non-word-building context (such as the "Pythagorean Y") to represent something else.

It will be a little while before this can be more fully addressed.

...and Grrr82CU smile

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#221081 - 10/22/07 07:21 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


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Just thought I'd throw in something I saw in an 'alternative' documentary ~ or maybe read in a Picknett & Prince book ~ the 'interesting' idea that English was considered to be a 'special' language used by 'the initiated'.

Any thoughts??
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#221124 - 10/22/07 01:17 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Originally Posted By: PDM
English was considered to be a 'special' language used by 'the initiated'


More intrigue wink !!??!!

First question that came to mind...what 'era' of English development ??

As previously demonstrated (post #219281 - 10/10/07), the English of Leonardo's day (with or without 'initiation' into its usage) was nothing like that of today. Any deployment of it even by an 'initiated' Leonardo would have relfected the language then, not the language of later development or today's.

...and Grrr82CU smile

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#221551 - 10/24/07 09:41 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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But we are not talking about just anyone, we are talking about the 'Mind' of Lionardo.

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#225803 - 11/11/07 11:54 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU , On the back side of the picture we call the Arno Valley in Leonardo da vinci's writing backwards shows proof of the "Y" being used in the name "MARY". by L;eonardo The writing says " Leonardo’s study of the landscape began early in his artistic career. The inscription on this drawing, written in Leonardo’s characteristic mirror-writing reads, [b]“(feast) of Saint Mary of the Snow/ - day of August 5th, 1473”. [/b]As such, it is Leonardo’s earliest surviving drawing, executed when he was just 21 years old.

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#228181 - 11/17/07 05:20 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
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Originally Posted By: nanago
Grrr82CU , On the back side of the picture we call the Arno Valley in Leonardo da vinci's writing backwards shows proof of the "Y" being used in the name "MARY". by Leonardo


With all respect intended, when this writer followed the link you kindly provided and examined the drawing under high magnification and a mirror held up to the faded, backwards, script, the "Y" was clearly not a "Y" at all but an "M".

The first half of Leonardo's cursive "M" starts with a curl at its inception before continuing to completion and proceding to the middle stroke of the "M". That middle-of-the-"M"-stroke then rises to begin the last half of Leonardo's cursive letter "M" which is formed by a downward stoke, descending, arching outward as it does and then curving back again to completion.

If looked at casually it might be thought to be a "Y" but examined more closely in context with the remainder of the word spelled...the word is "Maria" not "Mary".

Leonardo may have written his sentences backwards but this writer is not aware of any example wherein he wrote his letters backwards. The word "Maria" seen on the drawing, written backwards, clearly ends with an “a”.

As previously presented, Leonardo did not use a letter that was not in his language at the time he lived for word construction. Again from what this writer viewed under high magnification and a mirror, this example does not provide any evidence to the contrary.

"Maria" was the name of "Mary" in the Italian of Leonardo's day even as it was in the English of his day.

...and Grrr82CU smile


Edited by Lisa Shea (12/29/12 11:33 PM)
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#228351 - 11/18/07 02:49 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
nanago Offline
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Grrr82CU, "Maria" was the name of "Mary" in the Italian of Leonardo's day even as it was in the English of his day.Yes I agree with you Grrr82CU, I was just pointing out what Martin Kemp spoke of.
Smiles

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#242720 - 01/10/08 02:42 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: nanago]
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Cracking the real da Vinci code; Centuries later, a Mason says ... Cracking the real da Vinci code: Hidden in plain sight By Gail McCarthy GLOUCESTER DAILY TIMES (GLOUCESTER, Mass.) GLOUCESTER, Mass. — Michael Domoretsky has spent the past four years studying the works of Leonardo da Vinci to uncover the secrets of the original Renaissance man. Now he’s sharing those secrets with the world. What Domoretsky has found, he says, is a “legacy of hidden messages” carefully concealed in some of the world’s most famous paintings and decipherable only to those who know how to read them. Domoretsky, an Ipswich resident, gave his first public presentation on his research before a roomful of North Shore Masons at their lodge on Eastern Avenue in Gloucester on Tuesday night. The venue was appropriate because Domoretsky believes the 15th century artist was a Mason who incorporated Masonic symbols, like the compass and square, into his works. “The best place to hide something is in plain sight,” said Domoretsky, who is a Mason himself and works with stone as a self-employed installer of marble and granite countertops. Domoretsky has had a lifelong interest in da Vinci. But his obsession with the master’s secrets was kindled when he came across an image of the “Mona Lisa” on a Web site about the movie “The Da Vinci Code.” He’s quick to add, however, that he didn’t see the movie until long after he began his research, has never read the book and his work has no connection to the ideas presented by “Code” author Dan Brown. Domoretsky said da Vinci was a master of optical illusion who created pictures within pictures within pictures — many of them designed to be visible only with the use of mirrors. In the darkened hall, Domoretsky projected images of two paintings, “Mona Lisa” and “The Virgin and Child with St. Anne and the Infant Saint John the Baptist,” as they appear when mirrors are positioned to the right and left of the original artwork. The resulting twinned images reveal hidden faces and objects and forms that include several chalices and what Domoretsky sees as a high priest of the Knights Templar, a Templar shield and cross and a sarcophagus. The Knights Templar came into existence after the First Crusade of 1096 to protect European pilgrims en route to sacred sites in Jerusalem. The order was suppressed about 200 years later but, some believe, went underground and survived as a secret society. Domoretsky believes da Vinci was “heavily involved in Freemasonry and the Knights Templar.” Graham Noll of Groveland, who is part of Domoretsky’s da Vinci Project Research Group and assisted at Tuesday’s presentation, said the messages that the artist embedded in his work were intended for other initiates of the secret societies in which da Vinci was involved. “The membership of craft and professional associations were given knowledge and ritual to protect, and da Vinci was obliged to pass on the information,” Noll said. Domoretsky said to his knowledge, he is the first to use the mirror imaging to study Da Vinci’s work. Scholars are skeptical of his findings — one critic, for example, questions why da Vinci would conceal the word “Mary” in the folds of the Mona Lisa’s clothing when the Italian for Mary is “Maria.” “Anyone who claims to find something new is dismissed by the experts,” Domoretsky said. “We are misrepresented because some people don’t like what we say.” Domoretsky remains undaunted and continues his research to decode da Vinci’s secrets and the meaning of messages he encrypted in his paintings. He plans to hit the road with the show he presented in Gloucester. Domoretsky, who also plans a book, has previously detailed some of his findings on his Web site, www.lionardofromvinci.com. (He believes the artist’s real first name was Lionardo, not Leonardo.) Dana Andrus, master of the Tyrian-Ashler-Acacia Masonic Lodge in Gloucester, said Masons he talked with after the presentation were intrigued by Domoretsky’s work. “I think he is somewhat of a visionary,” Andrus said. “He used da Vinci’s own insight to look at the paintings. That’s someone who has taken a great deal of time and thought, and not listened to the conventional wisdom, and come up with a new idea on how to approach something.” Gail McCarthy writes for the Gloucester Daily Times of Gloucester, Mass. E-mail her at gmcarthy@ecnnews.com

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#318729 - 08/11/08 01:41 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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In the Post, #219883 - 10/14/07, Part 2, a reference to Leonardo's Codex Trivulzianus was followed by a URL to allow readers to view the material referenced (available through Central Saint Martins College of Art and Design's website).

The URL originally embedded has apparently been changed. For those wishing to view the image, please click on the following new hyperlink: Codex Trivulzianus by Leonardo da Vinci

Enjoy...and Grrr82CU !!

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#318791 - 08/11/08 07:35 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
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Thanks for sorting that out Grrr82CU!
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#319205 - 08/13/08 06:51 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
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Originally Posted By: PDM
Thanks for sorting that out Grrr82CU!

Hello PDM...and you are welcome.

The original URL led to The Museo Nazionale e della Technologia in Milan. The link became unusable due to the museum's ongoing renovation. Once the museum has reopened, all who are interested in the works of Leonardo should visit either in person or via the museum's website which offers several languages in support of viewer needs.

Fortunately an excellent link was found at Central Saint Martin's College of Art and Design in London and could be listed enabling readers to view Leonardo's vocabulary exercise in context with the point being made in that particular three-part post.

...and as always, Grrr82CU !!


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#352256 - 02/16/09 06:43 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
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This link to Leonardo's Trivulzianus (a vocabulary exercise on the master's part to improve his language and communication skills at court) has been posted previously by this writer.

The reason for re-posting it is that by "right-clicking" on the link below the picture, an interested reader will be able to examine fine details of this manuscript due to a new "Zoom & Explore" feature added by the Universal Leonardo site.

Once the site has been accessed, "click" on the "Zoom & Enlarge" hyperlink. Once the enlarged picture displayes, additional "clicking" on it will continue the enlargment process. Also note that while in this mode, the picture is movable in all directions (hold down the right-button, move your mouse to move the picture viewing area under enlargement) for full exploration.


Link To Leonard da Vinci's "Zoomable" Trivulzianus

Enjoy...and Grrr82CU smile
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#352303 - 02/17/09 08:50 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
PDM Offline


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Thank you smile
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#352321 - 02/17/09 10:11 AM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
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You are welcome, PDM...

For additional "fun" - hold a mirror up to an enlarged and isolated portion of Leonardo's handwritten text (since he often wrote words in reverse perhaps to baffle curious eyes investigating what he was writting or had written) - and "see" the word it is in the Italian of his day.

...and...Grrr82CU smile
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#419872 - 11/03/11 06:08 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Friend PDM - just a quick note in case you find yourself perusing old topics in which we have had all those great exchanges - I left you a note in "Leonardo's Painting - A Fatal Flaw?" on November 03, 2011, just in case you haven't seen it.

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#419873 - 11/03/11 07:17 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
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Also - and this is important to anyone reading through this thread's installments - I noticed in re-reading through it myself that some of the coding is not functioning as it was when originally posted. Several of the "color" codes are not producing the color called for by the hexidecimal number which worked "back then" (such as called for to highlight the name of "Mary Magdalene" in the Old English quote from Luke 8:1-3. At the time, her name appeared as "magdalenisce maria" instead of as now all the same color.

Hopefully the above example will assist in "seeing" Mary Magdalene as it appeared in Old English corresponding to Leornardo's "day" in that quotation of Luke 8:1-3 in the "Introduction" - Post #219281 on 10/10/07.

Another example of a link now not functioning is the display of "The Codex Trivulzainus" of Leonardo's in "Part 2" posted on 10/14/07.

On that point (the Trivulainus) I have just entered a more stable link (appearing two/three entries above this one] originally posted on 02/16/09) to display this very interesting and facinating document.

Hopefully this arrangement will allow a reader to better maintain the context in the respective paragraph of "Part 2" after viewing the exhibit of the Trivulainus and returning to "Part 2".

Another link now not working is the display of the Arabic letter "Za" now transliterated into modern day English/Latin alphabet as a "Y" (but absolutely not back in the time of Old English).

In the same area, the link to display the Greek letter "PSI" also is no longer working. The capital "PSI" is as noted in "Part 2" is sometimes mistaken for a "Y" which it is not.

Again - a reader initiated "search" for thos alphabetic letter in their respective languages may produce examples that can be viewed for context in correlation with the argumentation

Similar examples of non-functioning links could be pointed out but hopefully a reader encountering such missing examples can now initiate a "search" the to view an example to help with the in context associated with its respective paragraph if they wish to do so.

In closing - remember all these examples and accompanying agrumentation were presented to counter the claims by a representative of the "da Vinci Project, Research Group" that Leonardo used a modern day "Y" based upon his studies of Euclid, Pythagoras, etc., which of course is absurd since (as documented in Parts I and 2 and continuing) - Leonardo didn't speak English (plus "Mary" didn't resemble "Mary" at all in his day [see the Old English example] as neither did the "Y" seen on walls and elsewhere represent a linguistic use of "y" in constructing "words" in Leonardo's day (nor Euclid's nor Pythagoras').

...and Grrr82CU !! smile
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#419875 - 11/03/11 08:09 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
PDM Offline


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Hi there smile

Thanks for updating and clarifying. smile
Yes, unfortunately, links do seems to go out of date from time to time. smile
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#421012 - 12/25/11 12:42 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Grrr82CU Offline
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A temporary problem has developed regarding the display of certain links/URLs used to retriev picturs stored on Photobucket which will hopefully be resolved soon.

{Regrettably a number of other links have become non-functional over time as presumably either no longer offered by the source or have changed to another server).

In the mean time with regard to those links/pictures stored on Photobucket - in place of where those pictures are supposed to be visible is a "square" from Photobucket advising the "bandwidth has been exceeded".

If you click on that "square" the picture that is supposed to display can usually still be displayed. This "bandwidth" issue should be corrected and the pictures restored and visible by the end of the year if not before.

And...Grrr82CU !!
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#425914 - 12/26/12 03:18 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: Grrr82CU]
Grrr82CU Offline
Companion

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Chicago, IL
For anyone visiting this folder - I have just noticed that for some reason the "founding post" (initial entry setting up the discussion) is missing.

I have alerted PDM as of 12/26/12
_________________________
Thanks For Visiting !!

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#425915 - 12/26/12 03:30 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Lisa Shea Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 8818
Loc: US
We currently have an issue in the forums where any post made with UniCode characters (curly quotes, etc) are not showing up. I'm actively working on that.
_________________________
Lisa Shea, Owner

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#425940 - 12/29/12 11:34 PM Re: 'Y' - Euclid, Pythagoras, Leonardo, etc. MarY [Re: PDM]
Lisa Shea Offline


True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 8818
Loc: US
This thread should be all set.
_________________________
Lisa Shea, Owner

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